You know, it might not be possible for the Tholians to repair a NDD, NFF when they arrive.

So if/when they do get crippled, its effectively "dead" when it gets back to the Dyson Sphere.

Maybe scraping one, will get you enough to repair 2.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 05:49 pm: Edit

I dunno....be kind of fun to make the klingons basically pick 30 ships or so, roll a die for each one. Anything that come up crippled or destroyed give the Tholians salvage. Good way to get the Tholians some cash right off the bat.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Will the Web rules need to be modified?

Thought the factors for w and Y ships were going to be related to the factors on the GW ships for F&E so that for each additional expansion module for F&E would not have to reprint counters for all ships in existance for each time period...(not saying it well sorry).

Anyway, given the relative superiority of Tholian technology at the time, it could be appropriate.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 06:28 pm: Edit

Jeff, the factors on the ships account for weapons and defenses, but not a lot for speed. in the web senerio I posted above the speed difference becomes critical so the web rules may need to be expanded to make them more effective against slower ships.

useing the GW era web rules the klingons would get trashed, but would slowly wear down the tholians, what I was pointing out is that looking at it from SFB it is so hard for the klingons to do any damage at all to the tholians that below a specific shipcount it may be impossible for the klingons to do any damage at all to the tholians. this would mean that instead of the tholians needing to have a 60 ship fleet to capture the territory, destroy the klingon bases and setup shop, they may only need 20 ships becouse when attacked they wouldn't loose any ships. (assuming a klingon fleet of 100 or so ships, many constructed after the tholians arrive)

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 08:09 pm: Edit

My guess is that the Tholian "homeworld" was in pretty beat up shape when it arrived. That's the only thing that would explain how any attack by the Klingons was anything less than a complete disaster.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 08:38 pm: Edit

Andy, as far as the klingons was concerned it was a complete disaster (after all they are still here)

I would assume that it didn't have much in the way of PDU's when it arived (not a lot of need in the old galaxy, although a SB with web would be reasonable)

also the klingons would have attacked before they learned what web could do to them, since the players know this and would not attack we may need something like Christoper suggested to reflect the attack that would happen historicly

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 08:44 pm: Edit

Web probably didn't exist intially. Remember it requires moving asteroids into position to establish a wedding cake.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 08:55 pm: Edit

David Kass, that doesn't take very long to move the asteroids an it would take some time for the klingons to notice they were there (I know if I were the tholians I would get the wedding cake up before doing ANY exploration that could alert others to my being here)

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 10:25 pm: Edit

Hmm, you're forgeting about globular web, no need for anchors, just takes time to set up. their sphere is small enough to get two rings up (R2 & 4 or 3 & 5), the third layer would require anchors (not to mention that the Klingons wouldn't know to shot the anchors (if not asteriods/ships) anyway...

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 10:36 pm: Edit

even if all they get up is the two rings before the klingons arrive that's still 12 turns before the klingons can do ANY damage to the tholians, pleanty of time for 12 P-4 to blow a hole in the ring of ships and get a NDD or NCL our to recharge the outer ring.

also they don't have to kill each ship, if they just drop the shields and do 5 points of warp damage to the ship that's 5+ additional turns they have to blast at that ship before it can get through the web.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 10:49 am: Edit

Somebody asked me for the combat factors, repair factors, and EW of a pre-Y140 starbase. I haven't a clue and don't have time to stop the company while I figure it out.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 10:47 pm: Edit

Hmmm, pre-Y140 SB, just drop it to 32/16 combat factors with 4 point SIDS (quick & dirty guideline, also easy)...BS would run either 9/5 or 8/4 (with 2x4.5 or 2x4 SIDS)...

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 11:00 pm: Edit

I think the loss of P-4 will make more of a difference then that

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 09:45 pm: Edit

Actually, there are no pre-Y140 SBs, the BS dates from Y120 and the BATS from Y130 (and the P4 GB is from Y120) otherwise you're looking at BSCs for the most part...

By John Pepper (Akula) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 10:38 pm: Edit

Just a quick note, no one has mentioned the fact that there already is a middle years scenerio(Kzinti vs Federation War) advalible in the captains log that was a collection of the best of nexus magaizne. There is also a published 4 years war scenerio. Based on these I think it may be safe to say you can summerize the type of war fare you can expect with the tech level like this:
Early Years-Mainly boarder disputes along a vary fixed line of bases, similar to World War 1 from 1914-1917. I think this will turn out to be mostly attrition combat, with a lot of focus on damaging key enemy ships.
Middle Years-Still focused on combat in and around a fixed line of bases, but we begin to see larger conflicts and much stronger much more moble assualts, these assualts tend to focus on getting passed the first fixed line of defenses and attacking the enemy's economy and planetary holdings. Good suppy is critical and hard to replace. Similar to WW1 1918???(Not really but has some similarities)
GW- Focus is now on taking and destroying an enemys capital, fast moving large scale assualts. Battles tend to focus on Starbases and key planets. (Comparible in someways to WW2) Atrition Warfare with fighters and Pf's. Galactic wide warefare.
X-Ships(ISC/Andros)- Rapid and sparatic warefare over key planets and starbases only less of a focus on fixed defense lines. Attrition warefare tends to die out because of the ablity to better focus attacks on key enemy units.
X2???-We may see a shift of focus to econmic control over key areas, and a renewed struggle around fixed base defences(THIS IS TOTALLY A GUESS).
In anycase I think the Early Years/Middle Years will definatly be appealing to players who like a simplier faster scenerio and those who don't like to mess around with supply lines and fighters.
I hope you find this interesting and this is just my take on the matter.

By Rich Goranson (Old05g) on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 02:30 pm: Edit

Just my own quick notes on the 2nd Fed-Kzinti War:

I think the scenario needs a complete rewrite to make it playable. The Kzintis are required to go on the offensive with a weaker economy, a weaker heavy cruiser, a weaker frigate and a significantly weaker scout not to mention that they will face superior numbers in a very short period of time. If you use the EW rules this scenario becomes impossible for the Kzintis because they can no longer generate enough offensive power to seriously bother Federation task forces.

A friend of mine once said that the Federation SC was the ship that won this war. Certainly an underpowered scout with a high number of scout channels can cause utter devestation to an enemy principally armed with drones (and slow moving ones at that) and this proves to be the case in this scenario. The Kzintis can't do diddly squat against it.

How do we fix it? I think you have to cut the Fed economy somewhat and put some severe restrictions on overbuilds and conversions. Without question you might have to limit scout availability to one per year. Beefing up the Kzinti's construction rate would also help a great deal.

By Robert Merkamp (Rdm) on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 02:57 pm: Edit

Actually, I was thinking that the Fed production should slowly ramp up during the Kzinti-Fed war. I mean, the Feds are massive in terms of economy vs. the Kzin, even when limiting them to only part of their territory, they can easily outspend them yet the Fed build rate is exactly the same as the Kzinti every turn. That doesn't make sense.

Think Japan vs. the US in WW2. The only hope for the Japanese was to try and cripple us early on, hurt so quickly that we would decide that it wasn't worth it to rebuild and counterattack. They realized that getting into a long war with the US was most likely fatal.

To me, the scenario needs to be written with the different goals in mind. The Kzinti needs to be able to win quickly, before the Feds convert from a peacetime to wartime economy and get crushed. They should have realistic victory point goals to achieve and do it quickly. Or else the Feds will be out producing them by far if they let the game drag on. I know there's the "sudden death" victory but that may not be realistic for them to achieve, maybe something else?

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 08:14 pm: Edit

I really liked the 2nd Fed-Kzinti war scenario. It seems like it could easily be played using whatever rules cover that time period, or just the way it stands now.

Both Kzintis and Feds grew economically following this war. The Feds moreso, I think. Quick and dirty method is to subtract EPs of provinces on other borders as "needed for colonial development".

The overall length of the 2nd Fed-Kzini War has been an enigma to me. The Kzin would need to have done fairly well initally. There is also the idea of allowing the Kzin a turn of 'suprise attack', with attendant special rules... etc.

Just a thought. Salutations to the group.

Steve Rossi

By John Pepper (Akula) on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 02:42 pm: Edit

This is a repost of my ideas from the ship proposals board please discuss there.

NOTE ON THE SSD’s: These are modified versions of Negh Var’s Early Years ships and thus perhaps not the latest version of the them from module Y. Unfortunately I didn’t bring module y to college.

1st Generation Refits: In Y130 as the new federation high speed warships begin to appear star fleet command decided to begin to refit most of there Y series vessels to be more competitive with the new ships that were beginning to appear on there borders. The 1st generation refits were relatively simple, the consisted of upgrading all of the systems in the ships to the new standards and replacing the forward phaser arrays with PH-1s. The ships were also reclassified to show that they were slightly less capable then the new ships coming out of the shipyards. The first generation refit was applied to about 50% of the fleet until about Y140.

YCA-CAL(Light Cruiser) http://members.fortunecity.com/akula1/YCARefit1.GIF
YDD-DDE(Destroyer Escort) http://members.fortunecity.com/akula1/YDDRefit1.GIF
YFF-LF(Light Frigate) http://members.fortunecity.com/akula1/YFFRefit1.gif

2nd Generation Refits: In Y136 at the start of the 2nd Kzinti war the federation decided to replace all the Ph-2's on the YCC with Ph-1's and upgrade the impulse engines. By 140 star fleet had decided to apply the 2nd generation refit to all remaining Y series star fleet vessels.

YCC-CCL(Light Cruiser Command Version)http://members.fortunecity.com/akula1/YCCRefit2.GIF
CAL-CALK(Light Cruiser Kzinti Refit) http://members.fortunecity.com/akula1/YCARefit2.GIF
DDE-DDEK(Destroyer Escort Kzinti Refit) http://members.fortunecity.com/akula1/YDDRefit2.GIF
LF-LFK(Light Frigate Kzinti Refit) http://members.fortunecity.com/akula1/YFFRefit2.GIF
-This refit was applied to all Star Fleet YFF's that had all ready been converted to LF's.
YFF-ES(Escorts) http://members.fortunecity.com/akula1/YFFEscortRefit2.GIF
-This refit was applied to all Star Fleet YFF's that hadn't been converted to LF's.

One obvious negative’s of the refits was the fact that it left most ships underpowered, and all surviving refitted Y series ships had been placed in mothballs by Y168 only to be reactivated again in Y173.
F&E info
CCL 7-7
CAL 7-7
DDE 5-5
LF 5-4
ES 4-4

I also propose that the following be added to a new pre war mothball unit to be activated in the event of war with both the Romulan’s and Klingon’s. 1CCL, 2CAL, 2DDE, 2LF, 3ES.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 05:14 am: Edit

I am currently rewriting the 2nd Fed-Zin war over in the scenarios thread. I have put a YSB as having 18 factors (4 SIDS to cripple). It worked very well. In that age, getting 36 damage is pretty impossible, so the SB is still immune to DD.

The YSB starts with 1EW, and can lose compot in lumps of 3 per EW increase up to a maximum of 4EW. No special bonus for the Zin as their drones are too slow to make a difference.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 10:30 am: Edit

Some questions I would like to know the answers for.

1) Were the YDNs (built ~Y100 or so) conveted to middle years technology? Did those same DNs later become converted to the DNs we see in the General war. (the PAL activations we see for the hydrans for example)
2) What were the YIS dates for the Early DNs (the middle years ones)? in particular, I would like to know the Fed and Zin EDN YIS dates.

I am currently under the impression that "Early" DNs had a YIS of around Y150-Y160. This makes me wonder what happened to the YDNs, which would undoubtably have been retained and refitted as significant MY ships.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:32 pm: Edit

David. I can just respond for the Hydrans - they had no YDNs that survived to MY (if they even had YDNs at all). Something about some being conquered

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:34 pm: Edit

I have a DN thread that I saved from a few years ago that I will upload when I get home.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Can't speak for anyone but the Hydrans and Federation.

The Hydrans had two Templar's (Early DNs) that survived to the GW and were reactivated and conerted to Paladins.

The Feds have at least 3 Early DNs that are activated before the GW, one of which becomes a CVA.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Templars are Mid-DNs, not YDNs. The Hydrans haven't had a YDN published as of yet. YIS for the Templar is Y150.

The original Fed DN (which became their Mid-DN in R7) is YIS Y148 (I believe).

A C4 Middle Years DN was printed in CapLog 16(?), but I don't know it's YIS.⁴²