WYN: First, we have the wyn trade rules from CL19.

We would have a wyn fleet, and this would basically be a scenario although I guess any time you think you could win you could do it during general war.

Might be some rule for orion/wyn raiders.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 07:16 pm: Edit

IIRC historicly nobody assaulted the WYN during the GW becouse the adjacent races would have gifted ships to the WYN just to keep those resources out of their opponents hands.

this includes the klingons and the lyran not trusting each other with these resources.

another thing is that this will require special rules so that the assault isn't finished in a single turn and the reinforced WYN will have a chance of driving out the invader on the additional turns.

By Tim Losberg (Krager) on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 07:25 pm: Edit

The Lyrans Invaded in 181, the Klingons in 182 (Operation Riposte)
Neither was succesful

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 12:50 pm: Edit

I sort of think the WYN incursions are not something we need to play out in detail. The Klingons and the Lyrans probably underestimated the resistance they would face since they did not know about fish ships. So simply declare that these attacks fail.

Simply allow a battleforce with a set minimum ComPot (without drone bombardment) and minimum EW to invade the cluster in each of 181 and 182, with rules for deciding on which ships are able to withdraw. Any of the Kzin, Klingons, and Lyrans may send one force and get a VP bonus for trying.

The WYN are of greater interest in the Kzinti civil war.

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 03:30 pm: Edit

There has to be a reason to force the Coalition to make such an attack (instead of just a VP bonus).

Starting in Yxxx, the Kzinti can use the WYN cluster as a SMN for raiding the Lyran's and Klingons. To prevent the Kzinti from raiding their space from the WYN cluster, the Lyrans AND the Klingons, must send a battle force comprised of (XYZ) into the Cluster and fighting one battle round under the WYN Cluster penalties.

Failure to send a battle force into the cluster costs the race, 2 EPs a turn (perhaps more? this represents lost trade revenue with the WYN) and gives the Kzinti a +1 bonus to all raid combat which uses the WYN cluster as the last SMN before the raid.

This would encourage the Coalition to send a battleforce into the Cluster at some point in the war.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 03:34 pm: Edit

You cannot use the wyn cluster as a strategic movement node to raid the coalition. It's just not historically plausible or possible. Got another idea?


The CL19 wyn trade rules given the coalition every reason to invade since there is a huge stock of kzinti EPs inside the cluster which would be released when the kzintis re-establish contact.

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Haven't got the CL19 WYN Trade Rules, so didn't realized that they would give the Coalition incentive to invade.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 03:46 pm: Edit

What if the Kzinti's receive a free Orion ship a turn, made by the WYN Cluster and donated to keep the Kzinti Empire going? (The WYN had never wanted the Kzinti's to fall, as the Patriarch wanted to take over the throne.) The free ship can be added to the Raid Pool from the Cluster, then removed the next turn.

From SY175-FY177 a DW (5)
From SY178-FY180 a DBR (6)
From SY181-FY184 a BR (7)

If the invading forces inflict __ points of damage, the WYN stop. If they inflict 2x__ points, they capture the cluster with __ EPs.

Historically they were invaded in Y181 to get them to stop, the Lyrans inflicted enough damage to make them stop.

The Klingons did it to conquer the WYN.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 03:49 pm: Edit

Craig: let that be a warning that you need to check ALL of the date before jumping into the shark pool.

Scott: I don't find any historical basis that the WYNs could or would have given a pirate ship to the Kzintis. Got another idea? (Hint: this one didn't pass the duck test.)

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 03:57 pm: Edit

OK, we know that the WYN cluster (or at least the Navy) has a large portion of Kzinti.

They take over and kick the Cluster Cartel out of their shipyard to begin making the WYN Fish ships ~Y178 (the FF).

The Cluster Cartel would (presumably) have a majority of Kzinti Captains also. If 2 mercenary ships a year "volunteered" to go work for the Kzinti (with a majority of Kzinti crew), who'd notice and raise a stink? If the Kzinti were paying good money for the Orions, they wouldn't care.

OK, maybe not a free ship, but one that has reduced cost to hire, say they purchase it at lease price.

Lets say a DW, it's 'lease price' is 1.25 EP a turn. If the Kzinti pay 1.25 EP to the Orions, they get an Orion DW in the WYN Cluster, it can leave their by normal movement, or join the Raid Pool. (1.25 EP for a '5' ship, good deal)

The Lyrans+Klingons finally get fed up with the Cluster Cartel with all of the Kzinti mercenaries and invade.

By Tim Losberg (Krager) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 04:04 pm: Edit

The motivation to invade was greed. The coalition wante the resources that the cluster possesed.

other then an insane amount of EP's going to whomever takes the cluster, how about those ep's are at their own exhaustion rate, starting with the capture of the cluster.
A nice boost of non exhausted EP's would be plenty of reason to risk a fleet to take the cluster, especially later in the war

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Scott: do you actually know much about the WYNs? The kzintis in the cluster are all rebels who want to kill kzintis and take over the hegemony, not a single one of them (well, maybe a couple of spies, but not enough to man a single LR crew) would want to work for the hegemony. They want to attack and raid and take over the hegemony.

By Greg Ernest (Grege) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Yeah, but why not just hit the Cluster early in the War, like around Y170? Surely all those EP's would be nice to have prior to invading the Federation?

Also, if the invaders could get the WYN yards intact, would that add to ship building rates?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 04:39 pm: Edit

That would be the best time.

By Tim Losberg (Krager) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Greg, how could you capture the WYN shipyards but not the Kzinti (or hydran etc..) shipyard?

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 06:54 pm: Edit

the thing I am trying to point out is that with the tholians no sane coalition player will do a gradual attack, instead they will mass a force and in 1-2 turns they will either win or loose (attacking gradually allows the Gorn/Kzinti to get ships there to help, an issue that can be completely bypassed by just not giving them a chance to move)

if the coalition can complete the Wyn assault in one turn (it's only one hex) then there is no way for anyoe to reinforce the Wyn and while you can still roll badly it's pretty easy to calculate how much force you need to win and wait until you have that much and a little saftey margin.

early in the war there is nothing that the kzinti could do to help the Wyn, so there needs to be some reason the coalition doesn't go after the Wyn on turn 2-3 to get all that EP before going after the other alliance capitols.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 07:30 pm: Edit

The problem is that when you go after the WYNs you are going to pay a price in wrecked ships, and while you are going after the kzinti capital it's not a good idea to get distracted by a sideshow. Going after the WYNs, even successfully, means no attack on the Kzinti capital and probably a three-turn delay going after the Feds. Indeed, spending the ships to take the cluster on turn 3 (it is a capital hex with 8 systems, one with 3 major planets, one with two major planets, and all of them with some minor planets, all of those planets having defenses) pretty much derails the whole war plan. You would leave the Kzinti capital untouched, and forget about war with the Feds (until the Feds attack YOU!).

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:02 pm: Edit

As I see it there are two basic situations:
a) The benefits from conquering the WYN are sufficently greater than the damage you will take doing so to make it worthwhile diverting forces from other theatres
b) All other situations

Good players will know which is the case and either invade or ignore the WYNs. I can't see any player following the historical "throw two inadequate squadrons away without actually trying to take the hex" coalition strategy if not forced to do so.

If they invade, it will be a single attack with sufficent force to conquer the hex in one turn (which from the sounds of it, won't be that tough - one you've survived the radiation zone effects, fighting a major planet and a bunch of Auxilliaries (total ~80 compot?) isn't going to hurt as much as fighting Kzintai which can exceed four times that.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Andrew, it will be a bit more painful then you are thinking. remember that the Wyn overgun their ships so a FF will have ~10 compot and an aux ~6-8 compot.

I agree with the rest of your statements though

By Greg Ernest (Grege) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:44 pm: Edit

Steve said: "(it is a capital hex with 8 systems, one with 3 major planets, one with two major planets, and all of them with some minor planets, all of those planets having defenses)"

Wow. I had no idea there was that much inside the Cluster. I'm stunned... That's gotta be like 50+ EP's per turn!

By Tim Losberg (Krager) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 10:51 pm: Edit

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Quote:

That's gotta be like 50+ EP's per turn!

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By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 11:39 pm: Edit

The wyn national symbol (that circle thing with the dots) is a map of the cluster. Duh.

You'd be wrong, however, to assume that a wyn major planet has the same production and population as anybody else's major planet. there aren't that many warm bodies inside the cluster. But you do have plenty of defense brigades.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 11:41 pm: Edit

I can't remember the economy of the cluster. I have it somewhere. I think it's 24 but I could be remembering a TV show I need to watch the tapes of. It's certainly not 50. I am pretty sure it's in the 20s. How much is the Tholian capital as the wyn cluster probably isn't that big.

By Greg Ernest (Grege) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 11:53 pm: Edit

The total Tholian economy is 22 (20 for the planet, 2 for the province). +13 XTP once those kick in.

By Richard Abbott (Catwhoorg) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 08:09 am: Edit

Duh indeed - I have never really thought of that.

What thoughts are there on the Radiation zone ?

Given that most scenario's in the cluster have the force being met straight after entry - and after an engagement they would come out for refuel/resupply I think that until the hex is captured that every round is fought under a disadvantage. (be it half attack factor or whatever).

There are several references to freighters being only under robotic control when penetrating the zone.