Romulan Civil War. Not much of a big deal here. Just some pink counters and a scenario.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Somebody want to write the scenario? Figure on two or three sets of 36 pink counters. Post an outline and OB list here when you're done.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 03:59 pm: Edit

Which side gets the pink counters and what type of ships do they have: old series, KR, or 3rd generation?

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 04:20 pm: Edit

From Module X, the rebels had the KR-X ships, and ~3 KE

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 04:35 pm: Edit

The pink counters would be one side, the red counters the other. I don't care which is which.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Jeremy Gray has done some work on a Romulan Civil War. While he was looking at it from an SFB perspective, he did some research into the OOB to see what was available. His topic is here.⁴²

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Jeremy can speak for himself if he wants to.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 08:28 pm: Edit

Keep in mind that I have pretty much zero experience with F&E - I own it, but have never had the opportunity to play - but this is what I came up with for a possible order of battle for the remaining KRs:

Of course, the X-ship OOB is well known: 3xK7RX, 2xK5X, 1xK5SX, 2xKEX (1 additional unit possible). Unless other units are going to be added, this is what is known to exist, X-ship wise.

Non-X-KRs
K9R Behemoth
1 KWR (R10)
1 KWS (R10)
1 KDR (not converted to a NCA, quite possible it did not survive the war)
1-2 KR (speculation - assumes a couple of these survived but were too old for conversion to X-ships - see (R4.206))
KRP (max of two ever in service)
KRG (probably only one if any, max two)
KRS (probably only one if any, max two)
KRM (total number originally built uncertain, not sure if many would survive that long)
KRT (maybe one, max number not known)
KRV (maybe, these are very early carriers, but historically, the Romulans built two.)
K5D (one or two, assuming they survived the GW)
K4D (Same, R sections says most K4Rs converted to this variant)
K5M (max number uncertain, at least three were available at one point)

The R-section for the KR X-ships goes into some detail about some of the other KRs that simply didn't make it through the GW. The above is purely based on my reading of the R-sections and a few scenarios - it may not be complete. But it should be fairly close to what KRs had a chance of surviving the war. It is known that Rolandus had a fleet of non-X-ships and used them as a diversionary force. The KRs were concentrated in his fleet before the civil war began. It was the basis of the fiction I started in the thread Robert mentioned above.

The first thing of note is the limited number of surviving small ships. Based on the various R-sections, the little KRs didn't fair too well, and the few that remained became X-ships.

Rolandus also had at least some access to Eagle hulls (witness the KE conversions), but it is unclear what other Eagles might still be available.

I also seem to recall an SFB scenario (not the Rom Civil War mini campaign) that show 3rd Generation (Hawk) series Romulans fighting for Rolandus. I can't remember where I saw it, but I will take another look and see if I can find it. It is at least possible that Roluandus' fleet might be filled out with Hawks, particularly in the case of smaller ships like Skyhawks and Seahawks. Without them, the Imperialists would be left with few small hulls, or would be relying on old Eagle hulls to fill the role of DDs and FFs.

Anyhow, I hope this is of some help. As mentioned, this is purely based on what I've been able to draw out of the published SFB stuff. F&E may have some added background to offer that I'm just not aware of.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 08:44 pm: Edit

Ah, just found this reminder from John Sickels:

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Quote:

Jeremy, note that the story The Razor's Edge in CL 20 establishes that the superhawk command cruiser Praetor Zajac was loyal to Rolandus in Y186.

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By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:04 pm: Edit

Rolandus has at least one Starbase (based on the Civil War background/R-section descriptions) where he converts KEs to KEXs. I don't know that the Imperialist really have a way to build new hulls.

Just as a first cut, how is this for a draft Imperialist OOB:

Spring Y186: 3xK7RX, 2xK5X, 1xK5XS, K9R, KWR, KWS, KDR, 2xKRP, KRG, KRS, KRM, 2xKRT, KRV, 2xK5D, 2xK5M, 3xKE, 3xBH, 3xSNB, SE, CE, 2xCH, SUPA, 3xSPA, 3xSKA, 3xSEA. 45 ships total, 25 unique ship types (leaves some room for other pink counters - conjectural ships to include in the Imperial faction that might not have been available historically.)

(The KEs are obviously the ships that would get converted to the KEXs that existed historically. The first existing SFB scenario where a KEX appears in combat occurs in September Y186.)

F&Eers, please be gentle and remember I'm sort of new at this.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:21 pm: Edit

As alternatives to the KEX conversions (which occured historically), would the Imperialists have considered conversions of any other ship types? Just thinking out loud to give the pink counter player a few more options in construction than the simple "I convert another KE" option. And it might gives us a couple conjectural X-ship SSDs in the SFB world that would not hurt my feelings either.

Just a though.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:29 pm: Edit

it could be that the Imperialists can't build new ships, but they can activate sublight ships and upgrade them to warp/X tech

the only question to ask is why didn't the romulans already do this earlier in the war

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:33 pm: Edit

It might simply be enough for Rolandus to convert any of the older ships he can get his hands on to improved warships. Seems like old series ships were still around at the end of the GW, but most of them were support variants of various types (weak PFTs, commando ships, Freight Eagles, police ships, etc). They may not have been the best candidates for improved tech for the Empire during the GW, but the Imperialists would be a bit more desperate and more willing to upgrade otherwise obselecent ships.

Additional ships could be added each turn to the Imperialist faction by claiming that these are simply new forces flocking to Rolandus' banner. Some of the Romulan fleet needs to be busy with other things if the Imperialists have any chance at all. Forces sitting on the fence could be added in later turns to replace some of the inevitable losses. Perhaps these would dry up after a while if the Imperialists didn't have some early success.

Speaking of which, the ISC has a part to play in the Civil War as well - see the background text in (T10S3.0). ISC intervention needs to be an element in this F&E scenario. Perhaps it can be triggered by one or both of the Romulan factions doing something.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 09:48 pm: Edit

Jeremy:

How about using the ISC to "put a clock" on the scenario? If neither side has won by turn X, both sides lose due to ISC intervention? That would be a very simple (but possibly too simple) way of handling the effects of the ISC.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 10:14 pm: Edit

Alan, that's certainly true. Historically, the ISC intervened in early Y187. The war started in early Y186.

This brings up a good question - do turns have to be 6 months long? Many of these civil wars are brief in the grand galactic scheme of things - I'm not sure if a F&E scenario that lasts three turns is what folks might want (could be wrong - like I said, I don't know F&E really well).

One other though on a source of ships: The GW ends in early Y185. Perhaps the Romulans began immediately mothballing ships in an effort to save money. If some of these were placed in the territory that fell under Imperialist control, they could be used as activations on later turns.

By James Southcott (Yakface) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 07:21 am: Edit

General question from one who knows nothing about the official 'history for this period......why did the fleet split into the 'New series' vs 'Old/KR series' factions. Seems a bit strange that your political loyalties would depend upon what ships you were captaining.

By Greg Ernest (Grege) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 09:06 am: Edit

James: it's more a matter of how these units were distributed between the fleets. The Romulans eventually tried to concentrate the remaining KR hulls into one command. They had run out of spare parts, so keeping them together limited the logisitical headaches.

By Greg Ernest (Grege) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 09:12 am: Edit

Jeremy: I just looked up a decent point. According to a rule on KR maintenance from Advanced Operations (442.8), repairs to KR hulls will cost double and conversions would not be allowed.

This is unless they pay 10 EP to the pirates to smuggle some parts in for them...

Keep this in mind when you get to the point of setting up an economy for each side.

Also, any X-ship upgrades must happen at an SBX, so the Imperialists would need one of these as well.

By James Southcott (Yakface) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 09:38 am: Edit

Ah I see, then the fleet defected en-masse. Thanks

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 10:13 am: Edit

James, what Greg said.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 08:06 pm: Edit

Greg, if no KRs can be used for conversions, how do they get the KR X-ships? Those are all conversions from existing hulls, as are the KWR and KWS (from KDRs). This is a genuine question - I'm just not familiar with the F&E rule. Is the restriction on conversions after a certain date?

Is the comment about pirates smuggling in parts a suggestion for a scenario rule, or is it part of the actual KR conversion rule? Sorry if I sound ignorant - I really don't know the answers to this stuff.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Jeremy,

Yes the 10 EP for KR parts though Orion smugglers is an AO rule. This allows them to opperate nomally in all ways, including conversions.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 01:53 am: Edit

Ref: Imperial OOB

Jeremy Gray said: "Just as a first cut, how is this for a draft Imperialist OOB...45 ships total, 25 unique ship types"

Well, we currently only have for the Romulan Civil War, 36 counters per sheet and 2-3 sheets per product (I'd plan on just 2 sheets in case we are limited).

We first need to make sure we list every known (historical) Imperial ship already in the game, such as:
3xK7RX, 2xK5X, 1xK5SX, 2xKEX

We will then need to fill out the 2nd Imperial Legion non-X-ships named in the (T10S2.0) SFB scenario. We will need enough to do a capital assault with no more than 72 ships (keep in mind the the Romulan capital may have been struck and may not have recovered yet so we need to check the records). We need to be selective with ships and try to keep the numbers reasonable in order to make best use of the 36 slots. We should also keep in mind that there are possible defections so we should account for this.

I'd look to include slots for just the following old series ships:
KE, WE, FAL, SN
These are still on the Romulan schedule and are converts of those ships. We can easily explain that other surviving old series were not in the Imperial fleet (unless someone can document otherwise).

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 02:07 am: Edit

As to the time frame of the Romulan Civil War scenario, (T10.0) lists late Y185 in the text to January Y187. I could see from the (T10.0) epilogue, the "uproar" lasting until the close of that same spring.

So the maximum time frame is four turns:

Turn A: Y185F
Turn B: Y186S
Turn C: Y186F
Turn D: Y187S

This should give players enough time to develop a strategy and implement it.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 02:47 am: Edit

Hehehehe... That was like 40 NO's to my one suggestion - I'd guess that was the most emphatic NO I ever received...

Still, another countersheet suggestion:


With only 36 counters to work with, and a potentially huge list of ships and variants needed (all the surviving Kestral ships and their variants, all the surviving old style ships and their variants, and some of the new style ships and their variants), I don't see how we can represent all the possible fleets that might arise in the civil war "Pink" Rolandus faction.

Unless... we use the standard counters for Rolandus, and use the Pink countersheets for the Republic's fleet - since we would only need to build new style ships and their variants.

Thoughts?