Here's a question. How many ships are in the nominal ISC war ob for the Roms? Give me an answer and I'll show you the next step.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 10:47 am: Edit

Kevin:

See Module X R4.200 notes: It already says the black/pink was used be the Imperials.

If the Kestrals are concentrated in the Imperial fleets (per T10.0) and there is no other data otherwise, we could choose to limit the Imperials to just a handful of old series ship (KE, WE, FAL, SN), surviving Kestrals plus selected 3rd generation ships.

From a counter usefulness stand point, we should consider not creating too many Kestral and old generation ship counters as these are not as needed in the regular game. The players would be best served with additional SPs, SKs or other short supply 3rd generation ships and not a lot of 3FE, KRTs, K5s and BHs. Also, one set of 72 (2x36) counters needs to be enough to conduct the Rom Civil War, otherwise we risk frustrating player in that they do not have enough counters to play out the scenario.

By Greg Ernest (Grege) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 11:02 am: Edit

Steve: should I include the PWC before converting hull types for the Romulan OB?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 11:24 am: Edit

Greg: I need the answer to the question I asked before I can answer the question you asked.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 11:40 am: Edit

SVC, the only thin I can find for the Rom ISC OOB is to take the ships in the Rom General War starting OOB, and add about 30 ships of various types.

That gives the Roms upwards of about 215 ships if you include all the old series and Kestral designs.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 11:55 am: Edit

Using WOF scenario sectors E/F as a start.

The Romulans start T26 Y181 with 265 hulls +12 auxiliary units. They build 18 units per year (figure they can build about 12 per year due to exhaustion) so their fleet should be around 370 (accounting for a few losses until Y186 units at the beginning of ISC war.

By Greg Ernest (Grege) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 11:58 am: Edit

SVC: right. I was gonna answer that, but do I count PWC or not?

Initial OB = 130
PWC = 73
These ships would be subbed/upgraded per ISC 'basic pacification' scenario.

Ships added by scenario = 40

Total ships = 243

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 01:02 pm: Edit

Greg: the place I asked you to go count doesn't have any PWC in it so I don't think you're looking in the right place.

Jimi: I count wartime losses as exceeding production by about 6-20 per turn so figure on 277 minus about 60-100. Then you have post-war demobilization and civil war losses. A Romulan fleet for the ISC Y186 scenario might be 100 ships or so.

CEF: The Y168 OB is totally irrelevant to a Y186 scenario.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 01:31 pm: Edit

SVC, Me and Tim are in the middle of playing E/F WOF scenarios, we can send to you our fleet number counts when done (have 2 turns left to play) so that might help give you numbers to fall back on.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 01:45 pm: Edit

Jimi: Given the "losses during the last war years" and "losses during the civil war" and "post war demobilization" we can pretty much pick any fleet size we want and make it stick.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Ok Steve.

By Greg Ernest (Grege) on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 03:15 pm: Edit

SVC said: "Here's a question. How many ships are in the nominal ISC war ob for the Roms? Give me an answer and I'll show you the next step."

Well, I thought that this came from the "Basic Pacification" scenario for the ISC. These OB's are supposed to come from the pre-GW OB's. So I counted those.

I'm probably being more noise than help here, so I'll go back to lurking...

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 01:45 am: Edit

After reading (T10.0) and other source material, Grant & I put together a notional Imperial counter-set figuring that there will be 3 sheets per box:

K7R	K5R	KE	FH	NH	SP	SP	SP	SP
K7X	K5X	KEX	FHX	SUP	SPX	SPC	SPE	SPH
.
SEH	SEH	SK	SK	SK	SKF	SKE	SPU	SPF
HDW	SEX	K5SX	SKX	SKG	SKFX	SKE	SPM	SPM

x3 sheets

Notes:

1. The above is NOT intended to be a OOB but might act as a guide on limits of what should be on the OOB.

2. We struggled with what to do about the KC9R as we didn't know what happen to it and didn't want to waste counters as there was only ONE KC9R. So I'm thinking the at the time of the coup, the KC9R was damaged awaiting repair at Romulus, but the Republicans were cutoff from the KR maintenance parts (442.8) and therefore could not afford to repair the ship.

3. We recommend that in this product or somewhere else that generic counter be made available for (or from) general purpose units such as: SBX, SB, BATS, BTX, FRD, MB, Prime Teams, CPFs, AUXs, etc. in order to maximize specific counters.

4. We purposely didn't include WEs/FALs/SNs as they can be explained away as not being available on this front and also that no players would build them with other cheaper ships available (besides, we didn't want to waste counters again).

5. We also tried to create a set of useful counters that could also be used during the General War.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 02:24 pm: Edit

How how are the Imperial players going to "build"/start with all of these new-series ships? My assumption is they have a SBX, but no shipyard capable of new construction. (unless a SB can also build ships). I've also been operating on the assuption that ship construction/conversion is not going to be a major driver in this particular scenario, at least for the Imperialists. Aside from a few activations (from a small mothball/reserve fleet) and the occasional defector in later turns, they will not need a big pool of counters to draw from in subsequent turns. Sort of like a "you got to do the best you can with what you have" type of game. Twelve sparrowhawks (for example) seems to be way more than Rolandus could have ever hoped for.

All of their X-ships are conversions of the few remaining serviceable Kestrels. If they have some newer ships in their fleet at start (or due to defections), they might have been able to convert them to X-ships, so I like the idea of some X-counters for new series ships.

The KR X-conversions historically exhausted the remaining supply of K7Rs and K5Rs. Is there some reason we still need counters for those ships? It has always been my understanding that the conversion of the six KR-type X-ships will have occured before the scenario begins (ie the player would not start with the option of not converting them to X-tech).

I can appreciate the need to get maximum use out of 36 counters, but eliminating some of the units to do that takes a lot of the interest out of this for SFBers like me. Particularly the K9R. I've always operated on the assumption that the Second Imperial Legion (the imperial fleet of non-X-ships) was led by this ship. No X-cruisers were available for the duty historically (the Imperialists concentrated all of their X-ships in the 1st Legion). So without a DN (or using a HDW as a flagship - which they may or may not have access to), the 2nd Legion would have no CR10 flagship. Based on the history of the General War in CL17, the Behemoth was still leading a fleet in Y184 and no major Romulan operations occured between then and the end of the General War. While it is possible the ship was damaged in the last year or so of the GW, I think I would much rather see it play a part in the Civil War.

(Please note, I freely admit I make this last comment about the K9R for selfish reasons. I've got a piece of fiction about the Civil War that I've been working on and it asolutely hinges on the K9R. If I lose that ship, it tanks the fiction. Certainly, the contents of an unpublished (and incomplete) piece of fiction should not be the driver of another product, but I just want to honest about where I'm coming from.)

If this product is going to get driven by the need to have its multiple countersheets act as more highly-efficent reinforcements for other products, you're probably going to have to eliminate a lot of historical participants (not just here, but in other civil wars as well). I guess its a matter of perspective. Personally, I'd rather have a few of the historic unique units to make each of the civil wars "feel" right. If I want more sparrowhawk counters, I can come up with a couple bucks to spring for a mail order countersheet. I'd rather go that route than live with the units that would just seem to be "missing" to me as an SFB player.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 03:14 pm: Edit

Sorry for that long rant. I just put a seperate comment over in the Civil Wars: General thread that MIGHT be a way to give everyone what they want.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 03:51 pm: Edit

That was quick. Please see SVCs comment over in the Civil Wars: General thread. IF (note, big if) a seperate countersheet is used to handle the rare/unique units for the various civil wars in the product, including the odd ships like the K9R becomes a lot easier (fewer wasted counters). He certainly didn't promise anything, but it is at least a possibility. It would definately let a few of the assorted KR hulls that I think need to be present appear without eating up a bunch of space.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Seeing as how the Rolondus forces use the most oddball ships, would it not be easier to print the other side, since they use mostly the New Gen Rom ships? The Rolandus forces can just use the regular ships from the other products we all own.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 04:08 pm: Edit

That could work. I said before I don't care which side we print counters for.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 04:09 pm: Edit

I think the big reason we have assumed the Imperialist would be pink is the line Chuck mentioned earlier:

---

Quote:

See Module X R4.200 notes: It already says the black/pink was used be the Imperials.

---

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 04:19 pm: Edit

I don't think we need to stick to a color written in a seperate game system years ago, at least if there is a benefit from going the other way.

Remember the Civil War is more than just the X-ships that we see in the scenarios of X1. In any case, printing up even more KR counters would drive me nuts. At least you can use the new counters if the are the new series ships, even if there are a few uniques that we get a few extra of.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 04:29 pm: Edit

If we did go that way, what does the Republican OOB need to look like? That is equally important in all of this. I definately agree that using pink for the Republicans avoids the reprinting of KR hulls (definate plus), but will there be enough counters to really represent the Republican fleet (and all the possible variations that come with modular 3rd generation ships)?

I'm assuming that the Republicans are still producing ships out of the yards at Romulus (though at a reduced rate from what was build during the GW). The pink counters would need to have room for this construction, what ever it is.

BTW, I use the term "small" when referring to the Imperialist fleet in relative terms only. I'm well aware of the fact that we are talking about more than eight X-ships. But the Republicans seem to be drawing from a much larger pool of ships in the mini-campaign than the Imperialists, leading me to believe that they have much greater resources and a larger portion of the total Romulan fleet.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Guys:

If players attempt to play the ISC war AND the Romulan Civil war concurrently then they will NOT have enough Romulan Republican counters to engage the ISC and hold Romulan territory if they use the pink counters; see intro text in (T10.0) & witness the (T10S3.0) scenario.

Jeremy:

(T10.0) is only a mini-campaign within the Romulan Civil War (RCW). SFB history states that RCW started in late Y186 and ended some time in Y187 after the ISC/Repulican/Imperial battle at Tebernia IV; the mini-campaign falls WITHIN these dates; see (T10.0) epilogue.

That said, and the reason I included the non-X Kestrals (3xKR, 3xK5R) in the proposed counter set, is that the R-sections indicate that the K7R/K5R hulls survived the war (ie the armistice)
and were converted thereafter. The R-section (R4.200A) says the Republicans launched the coup at that time. This marks the beginnings of the RCW and where the F&E scenario begins. Also note in (R4.207) the K5Rs "were converted to this X-ship by the Imperial Faction".

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 11:30 am: Edit

For purposes of a civil war scenario, you might assume that 20% of the fleet was rebel, 20% was loyal, 20% was busy on the border (very tough die roll for recruiting), and 40% just sat it out (die roll for recruiting).

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Chuck, I follow everything you're saying. I guess my assumption was that the scenario would start with the X conversions of the K7Rs and K5Rs already complete. Taking the approach of starting the Imperialist out with only a portion of the conversions could certainly work as well (it is just something I hadn't considered).

My ignorance of F&E is probably not helping me here, but how many ships could the Imperialists convert to X-ships in the period we are talking about. I've been assuming they have one SBX to do these conversions. By March Y186, all six of the KR-based X-ships are in service (they appear in (T10S1.0)). If we start with only some or none of these KR conversions done, what is proper start date for the campaign? I'm really not opposed to the idea, but we need to give the Imperialist player enough time to get these conversions complete (assuming he chose to go that route).

My thinking was that if you start the campaign in spring Y186, all of the KR conversions would have all ready occured (but not the KEs, which don't appear until the fall). This would eliminate the need for the K7R and K5R counters all together. This obviously has the plus of opening up more counters for other things, but the down side of forcing the Imperialist player to use those ships as X-ships (instead of converting something else). Looking at this a second time, I'm not really sure which is the better option.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 02:21 pm: Edit

Perhaps we could have a counter that just said Rolandas. This could allow a bonus roll at any time he is in a hex with ships that need to make a die roll for loyalty or something.