Romulan Civil War Reference Material

Here is the entire WoF OOB Kestrels (35 ships):

Sector E
Fed Border: None
Sector E GHQ: KRT
Tholian Border: 3xK4

Sector F
Gorn Border: 2xKRC, K7R, KR, 3xK5L, 6xK5, 7xK4, 2xKRM, KRS, 2xK5S
Sector F GHQ: KC9, K7R, KRV, 2xK4D, KRT
ISC Border: None

Unless there were additional Klingon deliveries after Y181, this OOB must be the upper limit on Kestrel hulls available at the start of the RCW.

Note that this OOB indicates that there were only two K7Rs in service in Y181. Since (R4.200A) indicated that only three of each (K7R & K5) survived the war, it maybe necessary in the case for one K7X to be explained in such a way as one K7R was converted sometime in the General War to a KRC and was then later converted sometime in Y183-5 to a K7X.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 06:54 pm: Edit

R4.206 also suggests that the third K7X might have been a "lost" Klingon D7 or a converted KR. The KR is supportable by the one you list on the Gorn border.

It is known that none of the KRCs survived the GW.

I do have one question/comment on the above KR OOB. Module R10 added the KWR and the KWS to the Romulan fleet sometime after Y175 (conversions of two of the three KDRs). While the exact YIS of these ships is not known, there exclusion from the above list means that none of them survived that long?

Thanks for posting list Chuck. That makes things a bit clearer for me. As always, thanks for humoring this F&E novice.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Looking at the MSC in Module X1, these are the YIS dates for the various Imperialist X-ships:

K7X: Y183
K5X: Y184
K5SX: Y184
KEX: Y186

Therefore, the converson of the surviving K7Rs and K5Rs began before Y186. The R4.200 background says as much. Even if only one K7 hull was converted per year, the last one could have been converted to a K7X by the end of Y185. But it is clear that the conversion of Kestrels to X-ships began long before the end of the war.

Rolandus crowned himself Emperor in exile in "late Y185" according to T10S1.0 (making Fall 185 a pretty decent starting turn for the F&E scenario). I still think it is safe to assume the surviving K7Rs were all converted to K7Xs by this date (as the first conversion took place back in Y183). While it migth be nice to leave a surviving KR or K7R for the Imperialists to convert to an X-ship, I think it might be a best to make a concession and say that all the K5Rs and K7Rs are converted before the first turn of the Civil War scenario (rather than leaving one or two unconverted). This will cut down on the number of KR counters needed and allow more room for other ships.

Couple other things (unrelated to the X-ship issue):

- No surviving K5S hulls. Statement in the R4.208 text.
- The above OOB does not list the 2xKREs that were converted by the Roms to KRP PF tenders in Y182.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 08:37 pm: Edit

My suggestions for Pink/Black counters (assuming three sheets and a single sheet for unique ships):

3 sheets of:

K7X	KRT	K5L	KRP	KE	WE	CE	FH	NH
K5X	K5SX	K4R	K4D	KEX	FAL	SNB	SNB	SUP
.
SP	SP	SPE	SPM	SK	SK	SKC	SEH	SEH
SPF	SPC	SPU	HDW	SKF	SKE	SKB	SEC	Defector

One sheet of:

K9R	KRV	Rolandus
KRS	KRM	KVL

Some of my rational:

1. The single sheet stuff: I have to agree that making three duplicates of these ships really makes it difficult to provide enough alternatives for any modular ships in Imperialist service. I think you really need some of these to give the Civil War the proper "feel". There are obviously some other counters that could be put on a "single sheet" of special counters, but I would think these would represent sort of a minimum (except the KVL, which is simply a "fun to have"). There are some other ships that could be moved to the "one sheet list": K5XS, 2xKRP, KRT. That would allow three other ships types to appear on the three duplicate sheets.

2. The old stuff. I envision a pool of mothballed ships for the Imperialist to draw on, as they will have no ability to build new construction. These old ships would have been mothballed after the GW in territory controlled by the Imperialists, and they would activate a portion of these ships each turn. This mothballed pool would be composed of: 1xKVL,3xWE,3xCE,3xFAL,6xSNB.

3. The new stuff. This is tough. Picking some number of these to fill out the Imperialist starting forces isn't too hard, but there are so many possible configurations for new series ships, it is hard to nail down what ships the Imperialist might gain through defections. My though is that in the scenario write up, the ships that might defect could be specifically listed. Keeping the list sort of constrained will keep the need for oddball counters under control to a degree.

4. The Defector Counter. This would be someting used in combat only. This would be used to mark a Republican ship in their battleline as a defector. It would allow for a wider variety of ships to pull the switching sides stunt during combat.

5. No 3rd Generation X-ships. I decided not to include any of these in my pink counter list. Two reasons. 1. The crews of these ships are going to be more carefully selected than others, and like DNs, will be less likely to prove disloyal to the government on Romulus. 2. The Imperialist don't have the plans to conduct such conversions (yes, a hand wave). In reality, I'm trying to save on counters. Even if the Imperialist could get their hands on a 3rd gen ship and convert it, they are unlikely to be able to pull it off more than once or twice in this short of a scenario. Including counters for all of those X-ships eats up a lot of space that can be used for other things. I'd really like to see them, but there just isn't a ton of room.

I'm basically envisioning defection to the Imperialist side occuring at only two points. One would be at the outset, when die rolls determine which ships in a specified pool join Rolandus (these would use the bulk of the various new series counters). The second defection possibility would be ships that change sides in the middle of a battle. These would be relatively vulnerable (they are in the middle of the enemy battle line - a great place to cause damage, but are quite likely to be destroyed - the rules for in-combat-defection should reflect this vulnerability). This second form of defection is less likely to produce survivors from combat, but a few of the pink counters could be used to cover the eventuality.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 09:09 pm: Edit

KRs cannot be converted to X-tech; see K7X Rom SIT.

The rational was that when we did AO, it was determined that KRs are convert old D6s and D6s cannot be converted to X-tech. Only D7/D7Cs & KRC/K7Rs hulls can be converted to K7Xs.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 09:16 pm: Edit

Makes sense. Otherwise, the Klingons would want to convert all those D6s into D7s.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 10:27 pm: Edit

The KREs have not been introduced into F&E yet as they are survey ships. (I think they will come later in the future EconoWar module.)

As to the K5R, the text in (R4.207) is clear -- the Imperials converted these ships. There were no "Imperials" before Y185F. So logically, the Imperials had to do the conversions in Y185F or later.

As to intro dates: this is a date that a ship CAN BE produced and does not mean that they were produced. You are assuming that the did convert Kestrels -- my thinking is that the Romulans would have been reluctant to do so if these expensive X-hulls relied upon the Klingons for spare parts or used older generation ships (WE/KEs). I can also see from the text, that the only ones that used older hulled x-ships were the Imperials (see header on (R4.200A) that says "Imperial Faction").

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 10:33 pm: Edit

For the Imperials to have a shot at victory.....

What is the victory in the Civil War? Capturing the Capital and holding ot for a few turns?

If it that, then the Imperials will need the ability to make more ships, or they will lose almost automatically.

If not that, then what?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Chuck, I'm willing to except that the Imperials did the conversion of the Kestrels after the war, but how do they have the capacity to convert six ships to X-ships between the Fall of Y185 and March Y186 (the first time we see them in combat)? Is this something they can do at a SBX? Or would they need more facilities than that. I'm really not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand what is possible in the F&E world and what isn't.

Sorry about the KREs by the way, I didn't know they hadn't been presented yet. Are the KRPs refected in F&E?

Chris, what ever the victory conditions of this war are, they have to be something that can be achieved relatively quickly. There just isn't a lot of time. F185 to S187 roughly. If the entry of the ISC into the equation is made to be some sort of variable condition, then it might be possible to stretch that a little.

I still think the only thing that gives the Imperialist any chance at all is that the bulk of the Romulan fleet remains uninvolved. Based on what SVC posted earlier, it is safe to assume that roughly half of the total Romulan fleet remain uninvolved, and that those forces that did actually choose sides was roughly equal, at least at the beginning. Any advantage they have will be overcome by Republican production in just a few turns. That's why I want to give them some mothballed ships to offset it a bit.

To win, I think they are going to need to capture Romulus. It seemed to be the objective of Rolandus all along (according to T10S2.0). Because they are going to be the agressors in all of this, I'd suggest that the Fall turns be the phasing turns for the Imperialists (putting them on the offensive in the 1st and 3rd turns of the game (and the 5th if it goes that far).

I guess something that might help us all is comparing the number of ships in the fleet to the percentages that SVC provided. That might help to break the total Romulan fleet into manageable chunks we can think about when putting this thing together. Did we settle on a ballpark number for the total number of Romulan ships in service in F185?

[Edited by author]

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Chris:

Notionally; I'd go with JUST holding the Romulus at the end of combat with no Republicans remaining in the Romulus battle -- forget about the other systems -- Rolandus wants to take the Romulan Senate.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 11:05 pm: Edit

Jeremy:

Check your e-mail -- I sent you a note.

Chuck

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 01:09 am: Edit

If the goal is Romulus by the end of turn 4 (which I agree seems a reasonable goal) then the Imperials need a ship advantage of some kind...

They don't have the quantity or quality over the Republicans, so how do we go about making the capital assault at least a possible success for Rolandus?

And just so you know, I know we need to work ships out, but it seems superflous to do so without knowing what needs to be achieved and how.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 01:10 am: Edit

Jeremy & I have worked out a notional Imperial counter-set...

Three sheets of the following:

NH	FH	HDW	KE	SPB	SP	SP	SP	SP
NHB	FHB	FHX	FFH	SUP	SPX	SPC	SPE	SPH
.
SEH	SEH	SK	SK	SK	SKF	SKE	SPU	SPF
SEE	SEX	SKX	SKG	SKB	SSX	SKE	SPM	SPM

1 Sheet (One-Off or aka "all you'll ever need")

K5	K5	K5	K5X	K5X	K5X	KSX	KSX	KSX
K7X	K7X	K7X	K7R	TH	KC9	KEX	KEX	KEX

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 01:15 am: Edit

Could we not fudge a bit and give the Imperials the KR X-ships at start and replace those K5, K7R, and 3 of the K5X/KSX with somehting else?

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 01:26 am: Edit

I think we could probably reduce the Imperial capacity to produce additional X-ships (to keep them from building tons of them). Chuck and I had privately discussed giving the Imperials two SBX and sufficent X-points to convert these ships in the first couple turns, but if that ability to conduct X-conversions was scaled back in conjuntion with giving them all the X-ships except the KEXs up front, I think it would work. It is a little bit of a fudge, but it would cut back on the number of unused counters.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 01:32 am: Edit

Since the scenario starts in Y185F there were K7Rs available and the Imperial player may choose not to convert them. Jeremy & I think if the Imperials have 2xSBXs at start in 4015 & 4318 we can support the historical mini-campaign by:

A. Starting the Imperials with 2xK7X
B. Turn 1 Y185F -- Imperials phase first; convert in-place 2xK5X; move K7R & K5 to SBXs; 2xKE start in 3318 (out of SBX range)
C. Turn 2 Y186S -- Convert K7X & KSX; move KEs to SBXs
D. Turn 3 Y186F -- Convert 2xKEX; Attack Romulus per (T10S2.0)

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 02:37 am: Edit

Y185F Romulan OOB (base on ISC Pacification Scenario) -- PROPOSED (120 Ships)

HOME FLEET (REPUBLICANS): Set up in 4514 and/or 4613.
Ships (25) : ROC** (Start in 5317 -- returning from front for repairs), SUP, [SPB+2SKE], FH, 8xSP, 3xSPC, 3xSK, SKC, SKF, [SKB+SKE]
Other: 2xFRD, MB, Resv.
SO: SAV, LAV, FTL, 2xFTS, 3xMON
AO: Admiral #1
Special (1): KC9R (Crippled – No Kestrel Parts Available)
ISC Scenario Ships (3): FHX, NHB (CVS#1), NH (BCH#1)


FLEET OF THE NORTH (RCW NEUTRAL): Set up in provinces 4310, 4610, 4810, 4312, 4712, 4413
Ships (19): CNH*, SUP, [SPB+2SKE], FH, 6xSP, SPF, 3xSK, SKF, [SKB+SKE]
Other: MB, Resv.
AO: Admiral #2
ISC Scenario Ships (11): TH (SCS #1), NH (BCH#2), FHX, 2xSPX, 2xSKX, 2xSEX, SSX, HDW


FLEET OF THE WEST (IMPERIALS): Set up in provinces 4110, 4113, 4115, 4117, 3416, 3814, 3916, 3617, 3918
Ships(16): SUP, [SPB+2SKE], FH, 5xSP, 3xSK, SKF, [SKB+SKE]
Other: MB, Resv.
AO: Admiral #3
Special (8): 2xK7X, K7R (start at 3416), 3xK5 (start one at 3315), 2xKE (start both at 3318)
ISC Scenario Ships (2): NHB (CVS#2), HDW


PATROL DETACHMENT (IMPERIAL LEANING – use die roll to persuade): Set up at 3319
Ships (3): SK, 2xSP
ISC Scenario Ships (2): NH (BCH#3), SSX

FLEET OF THE EAST (RCW NEUTRAL) (ISC Border from WoF (617.F1))
Ships (19): 2xNH, 2xFH, 3xSP, 3xSK, 3xSEH, SPC, SPB, SPM, SKE, SPG, CNH* (Moved from West Fleet OOB see text in (R4.200A) stating "few large ships" were available to the Imperial Proconsul).
AO: Admiral #4
ISC Scenario Ships (10): PHX (SCS#2), NH (BCH#4), FHX, 2xSPX, 2xSKX, 2xSEX, SSX

Notes:
3418 was converted late in the General war to SBX to prevent a Federation overrun.
4015 was converted to SBX in Y185S.
OOB based on ISC Pacification Scenario (CL25 pg 109)
* CON converted to CNHs ** One CNH was the ROC Senator in (T10S2.2)
Scenario called out:
Add 4xBCH, 2xSCS, 2xCVS, 2xHDW;
Distribute 20 X-Ships;
Eliminate all Old/Kestrel Series Ships (Some are needed to support (T10.0) mini-campaign.)

By Richard Abbott (Catwhoorg) on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 07:17 am: Edit

One thought about aming the capital takeable :-

How about the PDU's don't get involved ?

Enter blurb about the ground crews waiting to see which side came out on top of the fleet engagement etc.

This may or may not extend to the base(s)

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 07:43 am: Edit

To add to what Richard said: What about the ground defenses were so busy fighting amoungst themselves to be involved in the fighting in space?

There could also be internal conflict on the bases and just make it a ship on ship fight.

Maybe a series of dice rolls to determine the status of PDU's and bases. Then the ones that are loyal to each side are added to the battle force over the planet. Something like:

2d6

2-3 Loyal to Imperials
4-10 Neutral or too much fighting internally to be involved in battle
11-12 Loyal to Republicans

This gives a 8.3% chance of a PDU or base to be on the Imperials side and the same chance to be on the Republicans side. There is an 83.3% chance that they will join neither side.

Maybe some modifiers can be used based on losses of ships or other events to shift the odds to reflect the units leaning toward one side or the other?

Just some thoughts...

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 10:00 am: Edit

Chuck, only three comments about the OOBs you listed (which look great overall).

1. The Imperials have one FH in the the Fleet of the West. My immediate though is that if Rolandus had one of these, why did he elect to convert his last K7R (or the K5Rs) instead? What I propose is moving the FH to the home fleet and something that can't be immediately converted to an X-ship replace it.

2. With the K9R included among the pink counters, we don't need it to be sitting out the war in the shipyard. I think we discussed this privately, and you probably just didn't make the change, but I just wanted to check. I think the Imperialist are going to need that DN (or some DN) if they are going to have a shot against the captial.

3. I thought we agreed to include a third KE someplace. We are going to have a third pink KE counter (and a third KEX), and the R section suggests that a third KEX may have been converted. Perhaps that can be the replacement for the FH (though admittedly a poor one). Or perhaps it can be added to the patrol detachment and its loyalty to Rolandus determined with a die roll. But I think we should insert it someplace.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 10:20 am: Edit

Throwing more curve balls, this time from module J2.

1. Only one NHB was ever constructed, the Imperial Eagle. I suggest that the second NHB in the OOB be a FHB from module R10. Both of these ships are big and nasty enough to be considered a CVS (both have the same fighter group and escorts).

2. J2 states that the VLV (Vulture Heavy Carrier), Imperial Banner, was destroyed in the civil war before its captain had "officially" taken sides. This seems to be a significant enough unit to include somehow.

I don't know if these units exist in F&E as of yet, just things I'm running into in the tome that is the R-section.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 10:41 am: Edit

Jeremy:
Ref: Your first set of Qs...

1. I included the FH in the west to show that I followed the ISC scenario setup OOB and forgot to move one of the KEs into it place. Good catch.

2. If Steve goes with one sheet of one-offs and 3 sheets of multi-use counters, then I cannot see why we could not use the one KC9 as an Imperial ship; obviously its his call -- I'd support it.

3. We could drop the third mystery KE into the Patrol Detachment and have the Imperials roll for it like the other ships there.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 10:53 am: Edit

And a sinking slider into the mix

The KE->KEX is a 2 XTP conversion. All other Romulan X-Ship conversions are 5 XTP or greater. IE, all other X-Ship conversions could only happen at the capital (major) conversion.

So, starting the Imperials with ships & saying they'll convert them into the historical X-Ships won't work (except for the KEs).

There could (or course) be a special scenario rule allowing the Imperials to do it, but then you'd wonder why the desperate Romulans wouldn't have done this earlier (or anyone wouldn't have done it for that matter).

I'm with Chris on this, by saying those ships are already converted to X-Ships prior to the scenario you save counter space and eliminate the need for a special rule.

Just IMHO.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 10:56 am: Edit

...and your second set...

1. NHB -> FHB: That is not a problem -- so who should gets the one NHB over the FHB? Would this be an interesting at start die roll?

2. VLV: Might make an interesting battle prize for the winner of a specific battle hex where both parties attempted the "negotiate" with its captain and the other side directs on the VLV when they feel they are losing the persuasion effort.

FHB, FHB & VLV should be out with FO later this month.