Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through October 02, 2004	25		10/02 02:51pm
	Archive through October 03, 2004	25		10/03 04:19am

Mermenc: I think capital defence rules don't translate because the distance between these areas is multiple hexes rather than less than one hex; that makes it a whole different problem.

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 06:22 am: Edit

DLang: Wow. Lots of good ideas.

I particularly like the idea of bringing survey ships and/or supply tugs along on off-map incursions.

What if, unless there is a tug (or LTT?) providing supply and accompanying the fleet, ships are considered out of supply for combat purposes? (Evaluate at the start of combat as normal, but having been in supply at the start of the turn doesn't help.)

Survey ships should be exempt from supply concerns on off-map incursion since, as noted, they can carry their own supplies to an extent.

Perhaps also a fleet not accompanied by a scout should get a +1 penalty to the `find the enemy' die roll (using the latest-proposed version where 5-6 finds nothing). OTOH, maybe a survey ship could both count as a scout and give a -1.

I like the idea of a reserve for the defender. Could we balance the division of near assets into four subareas which need defending by adding a reserve fleet to the OMA which can never enter the map? That fleet, though, to reflect the greater distances and lack of infrastructure in the OMA, might require a die roll (1-4 on 1d6?) to arrive at the site of the incursion in time.

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 08:22 pm: Edit

Each races off-map area is a little different. The base difference is the number of provinces/planets within the original (not surveyed) off-map area. Here follows a summary of starting off-map areas (referred to as "near" off-map areas):

Federation: 3 Provs
Klingon: none
Romulan: none
Kzinti: 3 Provs, 2 Minor, 1 Major
Gorn: 3 Provs, 2 Minor
Hydran: 2 Provs, 1 Minor, 2 Major
Lyran: 4 Provs, 2 Minor, 2 Major
ISC: 8 Provs, 2 Minor, 1 Major

Note A: The Federation, Klingons, and Romulans will never have off-map planets as targets; Colonies maybe, but no planets.

Note B: The Klingons and Romulans have no "near" off-map area; only the "far" off-map area which is added by survey.

Note C: How do the Hydrans fit a colony into a "near" off-map area consisting of 2 provinces, but already containing 3 planets. A colony may not be built adjacent to existing planets. It would seem that "far" off-map areas are better suited for colonies, as most "near" off-map areas are already developed to their potential.

Note D: Races with smaller "near" off-map areas will be harder to raid since they have fewer objects to divide amongst the six "near" areas. However, should it not be easier to navigate a smaller unknown area than a larger unknown area? The effect of the rule is the opposite. In a larger off-map area it will be easier to find targets.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 05:37 am: Edit

People are forgetting how large the raid force can be.

(3R.12) The Raiding Force is limited in size. It can include the flagship, whatever the flagship can control, plus a free scout, three drone bombardment ships, and (if used) a command point ship. It can also include three more ships above the command limits.

I make that 20 ships if I have an admiral and command point. If those ships happen to be the cream of the klingon/Lyran navy (and there is no reason why they should not be), you have a very powerful bunch coming your way.

Try something like:- (and this is not optimal).

DN 4BC STT D6M 3D6D D6S TG-DPBP 2CV/D7V groups, 2FCR.

The notion that even 4 locations can be defended properly against this is very optimistic. You would require more or less the entire Hydran navy (say, 80 ships) before the old colonies start to look safe(ish). Even with 80 ships, the fact that the coalition can generate battles in locations where the Hydrans *must* fight will result in some very unpleasent exchanges for the Hydrans at a time when they do not have a proper shipyard.


Please, can we have at least some chance that these raiding forces can be ambushed by the *entire* defending navy?

I mean - the Klingon/lyran fleet is fumbling about in old colonies space. The Hydrans presumably have little warning beacons splattered around. One tells them *exactly* where the coalition is, gives them plenty of time to organise themselves as the coalition move on slowly, and then come in *hard*, quite possibly before the coalition has even had a chance to explore the appropriate near off-map are at all properly.

Even *then*, the caolition has generated a fight with one of their most powerful fleets against an off-map hydran fleet that will want to avoid conflicts. I imagine this would be considered an approach battle, so the coalition is quite likely to have a pop at its target anyway. An off-map battle with 80hydran:20caolition is not necessarily good for the hydran (unless you give the Hydrans BIR 10 to the coalition BIR 0 or some other large advantage).

By Clell Flint (Clell) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 08:25 am: Edit

Based on the off map data I would break each near zone done by province. This would mean that the most zones anyone had (other than the ISC) would be the Lyrans with four.

Federation: 3 Zones, no planets, SB in Zone 1
Kzinti: 3 Zones; Zone 1 SB & Major (not co-located); Zone 2 & 3 Minor each
Gorn: 3 Zones; Zone 1 SB, Zones 2 & 3 Minor each
Hydran: 2 Zones; Zone 1 SB & Major (not co-located), Zone 2 Major & Minor (not co-located)
Lyran: 4 Zones; Zone 1 & 2 Major each, Zone 3 & 4 Minor each.
ISC: 8 Zones; Zone 1 Major, Zones 2 & 3 Minor.
Klingon & Romulan Off-map areas are unraidable (and not really worth raiding anyway).

The fleet attacking the off-map area picks which zone they want to go after and adds the number of ships in their fleet. Previous attempts to find that zone add 1 for each previous attempt. When the total is greater than 24 that zone has been found. When a zone is found the attacker can pick any stationary target in that zone to attack.

The off map player can react to forces entering his off map area. Any ships in a zone can use normal reaction movement to intercept ships trying to find that zone. Intercepted ships that are pinned are one hex off map but not in the zone they were trying to reach. The reaction of forces must be done before the attacker rolls to find a zone (if they still need to roll). Attacking Forces pinned in this way can only retreat back on map. If they win the pinning battle they can stay off-map but can't rejoin their original fleet until next turn.

By John Colacito (Sandro) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 06:34 pm: Edit

Please, can we have at least some chance that these raiding forces can be ambushed by the *entire* defending navy?

David, awesome post! Your last three paragraphs sum up my opinion exactly.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 07:11 pm: Edit

Zero chance of the raiding force vs the entire defending off map fleet. Just not the way it works anywhere else on the map and just not the way it works there.

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Any chance of a reserve of some kind?

By John Doucette (Jkd) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 07:27 pm: Edit

SVC, in the draft rule, there's mention of the defending groups being eligible to react based on a random roll. Could we change that to allow the defender to piuck the first group that respond,s with additional groups being rolled for randomly, with, presumably a roll indicating an already-engaged group is a no result?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, October 04, 2004 - 07:42 pm: Edit

TK: I already said so.
JD: I'll do something after Gurps Romulans.

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 05:00 pm: Edit

I think that if a reserve is in the off map area it should be exempt from the division into thirds and it should be added to the intercepting force.

As for the composition of the raiding force, I don't think drone bombardment should be allowed as thats a very long way to cart a bunch of drones for the bombardment. Or perhaps double the cost of bombardment by the attacker. If you didn't allow the drone bombardment ships you should change the force composition from 3 drone ships plus 3 other ships to simply 6 additional ships.

By Dave Butler (Dcbutler) on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 10:11 pm: Edit

Edfactor: Good point regarding the reserve; not certain that it should be automatically added to the reaction force, but rather think that should be an option. (I.e., it looks very much like the OMR is declared during OpMove to be resolved in Combat, so let the raided player use ResMove to send his reserve wherever he wants.)
On drone bombardment, can't agree. You're functionally not more than 6 (7, now that fast ships exist?) hexes off the map; figure some way to count hexes to supply. Also, there's the Tug Mission to supply drone factors.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Hi,


I was thinking that the idea of Off-Map Raids, while perhaps too much hassle to include during the General War or earlier conflicts, might be an idea for Andro War - but with a twist.

Perhaps we can say that the Andromedans are the only known race who can perform raids into off-map areas (by 'jumping off' from the closest on-map hex containing an RTN node - the kind of network that no-one else can operate).

So, if one was to say that the Andros place SatBases in 6106 and 6112, they can send Motherships along the RTN to either hex, and use operational movement to go into the ISC Distant Zone, and get back out again in a later turn.

Similarly, RTN nodes in other such hexes would allow Andro raids into other off-map areas, such as the Far Stars or Old Colonies.

However, no SatBases would be in the off-map itself (or can be put there), and if the SatBases bordering the off-map are destroyed the Andro ship would be stuck out there - perhaps it needs the on-map RTN node as a beacon.

Or, it can try and crawl its way out and back onto the map, and try to make it back to a hex with a working RTN node.

This might work with engineering in a 'delay' mechanic in getting from one off-map location to another - so you can't hit the two Distant Zone starbases with the same ships in the same turn, you need to take one turn moving from one to another.

If maps are ever published for off-map areas, they could be used for the Andro War, but the SatBase limitation could, or would, still be in effect (if necessary).

So no Lyrans raiding the Old Colonies, or Klingons hitting the Barony Starbase - but Intruders and Dominators causing havoc for everyone, but at a risk (once the RTN is a known factor).


How does that sound?


Gary

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, February 19, 2007 - 03:47 pm: Edit

It sounds like something the designer decides. I think off map raids are vitally needed during the General War and will include them at some point where they fit.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, April 06, 2011 - 10:46 pm: Edit

I would think that allowing reserve fleets (if stationed in the offmap area) to engage invading forces would make sense.

Ie, invading forces 'find' something, but the Hydran reserves can go there.

Not really different than what happens in ON map combat I would think.