some of the ships, like the KE4 and KG2 should come out and be replaced with something, perhaps another, and a BCH should be on there somewhere.

The liklyhood of capturing all those ships is poor and, there is no way to capture a police ship at this time.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 01:45 pm: Edit

Then you will need SIX slots on the one-off sheet to cover 3xKE4 & 3xKG2 -- do you have a suggestion on what to move around but cover the OOB?

The AuxBCH is there as the LAC (Large Aux {Battle} Cruiser).

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 01:52 pm: Edit

The KG2 I wouold remove completely. As for the KE4, replace the 2xLAS with 2xKE4s and call that enough. The WYN can use generic LAS.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 01:58 pm: Edit

Cannot remove historical ships (ie KG2) from OOB; see derived list from SFB:

(R12.2) WYN CAPTURED/CONVERTED SHIPS
Baseline units available during the General War:
1xLDD, later converted to LPB
5xZFF
3xKG2
Some number of purchased Orion Ships
3xMON
10xSAC
3xSAV
3xLAC
3xSAP
1xLAV
Various captured & converted ships
Various home built ships

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 02:32 pm: Edit

Comeon Chuck, we can fudge things like this. How are you going to gauruntee that these ships will be captured?

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Give the WYN a 1-sided Pol (ie KG2/LPol) that they captured or defected to them. (Kz Pols got converted to ZFF).

Limit them to 10 max, replenished by 1/year free (from defections)

Is there a reason we just couldn't use the Orion counters for the O-- ships? We have those counters already (well they couldn't use the Cloak ones obviously...) That would free some counters also.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 02:49 pm: Edit

Indeed.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Chris/Scott:

Historical Ships: I got my butt handed to me for NOT following established SFU history when I did the update for Gale Force and I will not let that happen again.

If SVC wants to change the history and OOB then it is obviously his call. Besides the KE4/KG2 are over-gunned and serve as defensive units and they are not absorbed into the Pol system after they are crippled like other police units as there is no place to run to in the Cluster. They need EVERY ship crippled or otherwise defending the Cluster.

Orion counters: again this is an SVC call, but how are you going to know which CR is the purchased WYN one, the Orion shipyard defender and the WYN hired mercenary (and don't tell me that I have to keep even more written records)? Besides, there are those that want their WYN O-ship counters and will buy the product just because it includes the historical OOB ships (there is also that minor war over the shipyard in Y181 with the Orions that may also be played out -- read your SFU history).

By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 04:40 pm: Edit

The KG2 is more than just a police ship. Its really a weak frigate. See the SSD. The WYN are the masters of overgunning things...

By Tim Losberg (Krager) on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 04:51 pm: Edit

not necessarily captured, some could have mutinied, some could have been gifted

By Trent Telenko (Ttelenko) on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 05:48 pm: Edit

Given the size of the Wyn enclave, and the pressing need to put down any incusion fast, I'd think that PDU fast patrol ships, fighers and bombers would be released to attack the incusion.

In F&E terms every probe of the WYN by outside powers would be an "approach battle" for a planet where planet based attrition units can participate.

If there were not enough trained manpower for all the attrition units, the fighters and bombers can all be declared "remote controlled," but fast patrol ships would still be available.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 02:50 am: Edit

(WC.0) WYN CLUSTER (Draft Proposed Playtest Rules)
By Chuck & Grant Strong

Description: Insert WYN Cluster description here.

(WC.1) General

(WC.11) Limited deployment: Most WYN units are designated with a "L" in the special designator position. These units cannot operate more than two hexes beyond the WYN Cluster and may be subject to other restrictions.
(WC.12) Radiation Barrier: Units crossing the WYN Radiation Barrier must spend one round of combat recovering from the effects of the barrier. The effects are noted below.
(WC.13) WYN Cluster SoP - TBD

(WC.2) Movement
Movement through the Cluster comes with certain restrictions.

(WC.21) Retreating units into the Cluster hex automatically interns those units if the WYN is still neutral..
(WC.22) Retrograde Movement into the Cluster may be later defined in a future rule.
(WC.23) In the event that the Cluster is captured, units may only use strategic movement into and out of the Cluster if thee is a friendly strategic movement node inside the Cluster and any hex immediately outside the Cluster.
(WC.24) In the event that the Cluster is captured or is part of an alliance, reserve forces placed in the Cluster hex can only use reserve movement for three hexes beyond the Cluster and cannot contain non-ships as part of the reserve force.

(WC.3) Attacking the Cluster
Attacks into (and out of) the WYN Cluster are rare due to the effects afforded by the WYN Radiation belt. All rounds inside the Cluster but fought outside of the WYN capital systems are considered approach battles.

(WC.31) General Procedure: Due to limits caused by the lack of command, control & communications, logistics and the risks involved certain restricts are placed upon the invading player. The attacking player is for the purpose of this rule, the invading player and the defender is referred to a the protecting player. Since there is usually no player for the WYN, use these procedures.

(WC.32) Invasion: Units intent on attacking to Cluster may move operationally into the WYN Cluster hex (0804), but doing so end all movement; all remaining movement point are lost. The phasing player must immediately declare an invasion upon entering the Cluster or if his units are to be interned.

(WC.321) The non-phasing player may respond with friendly units normally using reaction or reserve movement to any enemy operational movement into the Cluster hex.

(WC.33) Battle Force: The invading player forms a legal battle force from all available units in the hex to breech the Cluster barrier.
(WC.331) This force may contain admiral, command points, a battle group, etc. It may NOT consist of recovering independent carriers or PF units or casual PFs. Recovering drone bombardment units may not be used until they recover, and then only for one round as they cannot be supplied through the barrier.
(WC.332) The protecting player after seeing the invading battle force may choose to form a sent up to one legal protection battle force into Cluster under the same restrictions as (WC.331) above. However, the protecting player may never have more than 25 units inside the Cluster at any point (a WYN imposed restriction).
(WC.334) The protecting player then forms a battle force consisting of the following:
-- a flagship (follow (302.32), but the chosen flagship must be a WYN unit if one meet the eligibility requirements) and supercedes (302.321);
-- at least two recovered (WC.31) and uncrippled protecting force units for every one WYN unit when possible.
-- drone bombardment units and units sending independent units forward do not count toward this calculation, but their independent units do.
-- scouts in the formation slot and flagships maybe counted toward this calculation.
(WC.335) Approach Battle Success: The invader of the Cluster must achieve a greater level of success than normal. He either must score more damage points than the defender for any TWO rounds of approach or just fight six approach rounds; all other (308.3) rules apply.

(WC.34) Barrier Effects: The barrier restricts unit's combat capabilities ONLY during the round immediately following a transit of the barrier (inbound or outbound). They include:
(WC.341) Combat Potential: A unit's attack and defensive values a halved (rounded DOWN).
(WC.342) Attrition Unit: Fighters & PFs cannot be operated or used to absorb damage. If their host unit is destroyed in this transit round then they too are destroyed with no resulting minus points.
(WC.343) Drone Bombardment: No recovering unit may use DB.
(WC.344) Electronic Warfare: No recovering unit may use scout functions or be placed in the scout formation position.
(WC.345) Escorts: All recovering escorts provide only limited protection to their protected unit (carriers, commando ships, FEGs). A protected unit may be attacked directly . All escorts add one point to the total points needed each directed damage attack (heavy escorts (per SIT) may add two in escorting a carrier or carrier-like unit). Emergency escorts cannot be added while either the escort or it's protected unit is in recovery.
(WC.346) Other recovering units: cannot be used as a mauler, cannot use its SFG, cannot use web casters, cannot use PPDs, cannot use SWACs, SAFs or cloaked decoys, cannot use a cloaking device; cannot use troop ship "G" factors; cannot operate Prime Teams.
(WC.347) Ships crippled during their recovery phase must wait one additional combat round before they are allowed to return across the barrier. If a player chooses to retreat before these crippled ships have recovered then he may choose to scuttle each ship on a die roll of 1-4; on a roll of 5-6 the opposing player captures the unit. If a "G" unit was present in the last combat round a has an available "G" the subtract 1 from the die roll, if a Prime Team was assigned a capture mission and not used on the previous round, then subtract 1 from the die roll. These effects are cumulative.
(WC.348) Penal: No recovering penal unit may use the Special Attack or Honor Duel missions. The sacrifice Mission is still functional but at reduced effectiveness due to (WC.341).

(WC.35) Battle Intensity: If a battle force contains any recovering units, then the opposing player adds the following to the effects to his battle intensity:

Recovering ships in Force	Added BIR
100%	+5
less than 100%	+4
less than 75%	+3
less than 50%	+2
less than 25%	+1

(WC.36) Directed Damage: both players may designate one or more recovering units and declare them to be a single target for directed damage, and may use a mauler in resolving this attack. Only recovering units may be targeted in this way.

(WC.37) WYN Battle Squadrons
WYN Small Auxiliary Units use a special form of Battle Group (315.0).

(WC.371) In addition to using Battle groups, the WYNs can use any three Small Auxiliary Units to form a Battle Squadron and have that squadron count as two units for command purposes.
(WC.372) Any number of Battle Squadrons may be formed up to the command limits of the flagship.
(WC.373) All other battle group rules apply the use of WYN Battle Squadrons.

(WC.4) Supply

(WC.41) Units invading the Cluster cannot receive replacement fights, PFs or "G" factors from units on the other side of the barrier or from those units in recovery. They may exchange these resources with recovered units on the same side of the barrier.
(WC.42) Recovered drone bombardment units may only be use for one round as they cannot be supplied through the barrier.
(WC.43) WYN Drone Ships receive free drone bombardment points while defending the Cluster from the inside.

(WC.5) Special Rules

(WC.51) Non-ship units: these unit are to slow to cross the barrier without using robot controls and cannot recover in time to be used in combat during any player phase that they cross the barrier. The only reason to cross the barrier with a non-ship unit is to have these unit available for use in later turns. Any non-ship that crossed a barrier cannot retreat and are automatically captured should other friendly forces retreat.

(WC.52) Salvage: The invading player cannot collect salvage unless he conquers the WYN during the turn of attack. If the WYN successfully defends the Cluster, then the WYN player receives the salvage from both sides at the end of the player phase.

(WC.6) Scenario Rules

(WC.61) If any attempt the invade the Cluster results in any WYN world being involuntarily devastated, the WYNs with join the other non-offending side for six turns. At the close of the sixth turn the WYN will then declare their neutrality and all units must leave the Cluster that turn or be interned.

(WC.7) OOB - See earlier posts.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 03:05 am: Edit

The above is something Grant and I have been discussing for sometime. I wanted to post this proposal before we got to Origins so we could have discussions with the players. I will also bring a set of proposed WYN counters and a proposed OOB.

BTW, there is a double-secret provisional rule that states that if the Klingons in the Origins CloudBurst Scenario do not successfully defend the Orion Enclave, then the WYN's switch sides, will declare war on the Coalition and start sending money to the Kzinti (Jimi, are you listening?).

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 01:32 pm: Edit

(WC.331) This force may contain admiral, command points, a battle group, etc. It may NOT consist of recovering independent carriers or PF units or casual PFs. Recovering drone bombardment units may not be used until they recover, and then only for one round as they cannot be supplied through the barrier.

Chuck, with the new Drone supply tug option, you may wish to note the presence of a tug in this rule.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 01:46 pm: Edit

Good point -- we'll add that a recovered drone supply tug could support DB ships beyond their one allowed DB round -- thanks.

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 12:13 am: Edit

Chuck, re (WC.22), you can always retrograde into a neutral territory (503.12), and be interned, of course.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 01:18 am: Edit

Jeff:

Understand -- I was thinking about a concept where the WYN might be allied in some way to another race.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 11:34 am: Edit

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Quote:

ChrisF said:

with the new Drone supply tug option, you may wish to note the presence of a tug in this rule.

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