Are you sure that YDKs would be deployed away from the capital? You are also making YDKs out as about 7 or 8 factor units. Are they really that strong? (equivalent to a GW CW). I had thought they were kind of like FRDs, warrenting FRD-type factors.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 09:13 am: Edit

David. YDKs run 145-160 BPV and are worth every penny. While they only have 2 heavy weapons, they have a dozen or so offensive phasers(ph-1/2) and scout channels to boot.

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 04:18 am: Edit

I propose that Admirals are introduced about the time that all Starbases are deployed. It would seem that a HQ like a Starbase would be essential for an Admiral's command, and the logistical support of it.

If so, Admirals would appear in time for the 4th Lyran-Kzinti War (Y144). Admirals would also make a great addition to the Four Powers War (Y157), and other possible scenarios.

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 03:13 pm: Edit

From Fighter Operations:

In fact (607.185) allows the use of Admirals during the Four Powers War. It also specifies that the Admirals are attached to the Home fleet, except for the Klingons who may move theirs to the desired front.

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 02:28 am: Edit

I agree with Andy in principle that frontline defenses did not really exist during Early Years. The possible exception would be for the oldest borders such as the Klingo-Kzinti border. The Lyran-Kzinti border is straddled by the Carnavons. The Hydran borders are annihilated early in the period. I suppose we could consider the Klingo-Lyran border an old one, but the rest are not even grown together until the end of the Early years period.

Rather than BATS or YBS lining the borders, there might be more concentrated ground defenses, and YBS or other early bases defending these developing worlds as well. Perhaps some provinces contain colonies and planetary repair docks (per PO) as well. Whatever the case, there is a certain need for some forward defense and repair capability, even in EY times.

David S does beg the question however. With only fighterless DefBats and YBS as defenses during the Early Years, it seems as if a more potent fixed unit is lacking. It isnt the YDK, so what is it then? Not just 3 YBS in one hex, I hope.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 09:38 am: Edit

Considering how much less powerful ships where, why would defences need to be stronger? In EY the CAs would probably only be 5 point ships.

Early CA - 5
Early CL/DD - 4
Early FF - 3
Early POL - 2

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 10:19 am: Edit

Steven. More so than in later years, ships are needed to effectively defend fixed positions. Without Ph-4s, bases lack the long range firepower to survive large attacks by disruptor races. The maximum EW shift (barring OEW) is 2 so range 15 attacks by full disruptor fleets will always succeed against bases. The Hydrans and Kzintis must resort to closing (though the Hydran FA Ph-2 firepower can be used effectively at range).

I would think that the Kzinti-Klingon border, while geographically fixed, is relatively free of fixed-defenses, if only because the races are at war for so much of the period so keeping/maintaining/building bases would be so much more difficult (i.e., they'd be the priority targets of both sides) - I could be wrong though, if the relative intensity of the conflict is low enough.

Daniel. The question is whether to decrease the unit values or modify the BIR (eg. reduce the battle intensity by a fixed amount so less damage is caused). IMO, the latter is more indicative of EY since the ratio of damage output to damage to destroy is far different than in later years (i.e., ships do less damage relative to how much they take to destroy).

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 11:04 am: Edit

Andy,

True, but the various combat capabilities of all the ships are so radically different that just changing the BIR doesn't answer some questions.

By Richard Abbott (Catwhoorg) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 11:26 am: Edit

EAsy EW, just use the existing counter with different supply ranges, move rates and obviously no frs.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 12:15 pm: Edit

Daniel. True, I was just pointing out that I would be leery of just reducing values across the board - either a significantly split Off/Def would be required -OR- a BIR reduction.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 12:36 pm: Edit

Rich,

Some ships are so different that their AFs don't mesh if you use existing counters... Plasma is the best example. The Gorn CA with 2xPL-G does not really compare to the BC with 2xPL-S and 2xPL-F. The BC is just a refitted CA but the refit provides incredible combat capability.

The Fed gets a Drone rack and 2xPH-1. The Klingons get faster drone launch (1 per rack as opposed to 1 per turn) and improved phasers but no new offensive weapons. Don't you think that 60 points of plasma is a more drastic upgrade?

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 12:55 pm: Edit

And then there's the Rom with their sublight ships.

By Richard Abbott (Catwhoorg) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 02:10 pm: Edit

True to both comments.

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 06:55 pm: Edit

I am fairly sure that Early Wars will have counters for the early years ships, and that the combat factors on these ships will be less than those of the General War.

I had never considered simply reducing the BIR in order to model the reduced capabilityies of EY ships. While interesting, I think that I would feel robbed if I didnt get new counters.

BTW, it has been pointed out to me that an F5 can beat a Fed YCA on most days. Therefore a Fed YCA is a 4 point ship.

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Back to Davids original point about defenses.

If you took a Starbase and halved the number of heavy weapons, changed the phaser 4s to phaser 1s, and proportionally reduced the power available, I think that you would have a good "Early Non-Starbase". At any rate, the goal would be to create a unit with a compot of about 16.

But, since we are given that there were no early starbases, we place the base on an airless moon or asteroid and call it an Early Moonbase. (roll the Space 1999 theme-song). It must be placed on an available Planet or Colony.

The foregoing is only one concept of how there might have existed forward defenses stronger than a YBS. I think that such a unit should exist, as the YBS is fairly worthless even in EW terms.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 08:48 am: Edit

Steven. Yes, an F5 is capable of beating a YCA (though it is by no means a slam dunk). However, from an F&E standpoint, if you calculate the damage caused by the YCA with the BIR modifier and the damage caused by the F5 without the BIR modifier, you get the same effect.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 08:14 pm: Edit

To expand on Steven's points

We currently have a SB in Y168 that has four times the compot of any ship (including fighters, three times not including fighters).

For the EY, the YBS will have at best 8 factors, while the YDN will probably have about 6. So we now have a ratio where the best non-capital base only has 33% more compot than the best ship, a huge difference.

The should be some base out there that has around 18 compot, and at least 12, or the whole base/ship balance will be out of kilter in the EY period. That could possibly be desirable, but you will get a radically different game if you go down that route - the big bases will be stacks of PGBs, and those only once Y120 rolls around.

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 12:05 am: Edit

David: Agree, and at the same time nobody is suggesting that the borders are lined with these early bases. They may very well be located with developing (or occupied) systems, rather than in the default SB locations of Y168.

I like the idea of an 18 compot base, as the 50% compot reduction seems to be a recurring theme in discussions of EY ships. It would be a Non-Star Base of some undertermined type.

Without it there will be much doubling up of the available YBS. No problem with that, but a single larger base would be more attractive logistically and strategiclly.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 12:30 am: Edit

GW era SB have a bunch of P-4's as their main weapons and a few 'heavy weapons' for spice

the early bases probably had twice as many P-1's as the later ones P-4's (same number of spaces of phasers, just less powerful ones, but still the best that are around) and a larger number of heavy weapons

that will raise the firepower of the base against early fleets noticably, give them some added power/batteries and they should be able to repair their shields faster then the long-range fleets can damage them, forcing the attackers to get closer where the phaser-1's are again significant.

don't forget that the base will have special sensors and non-fed attacking fleets will not have scouts so remember to add in the EW shift as well (again forcing the attackers to get closer)

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 12:48 am: Edit

with a 2 EW shift disrupters are useless outside of range 22

at that range they will do 2 points on a roll of 1 or an average of 1/3 point/turn

assume an attacking fleet of 33 disrupters you aaverage about 11 points/turn

the P-1's on the base average 1/2 point/turn so the ~16 that can bear on target will do ~8 points/turn

both sides should be able to reinforce to this leval easily so let's close the range to 15

at this range (against a 2 shift) disrupters average 1 point/turn so the attacking fleet can average 33 points/turn to the base (plus 1/6 point per phaser)

the base's phasers will average 1 point/turn for an average of 16 points/turn against the attacking fleet (plus heavy weapons)

this is getting up into the range where each side can reinforce enough to absorb the everage shots, but good rolls start to get through reinforcement

it's hard to say without pulling SSD's which side will wear out first

if you close to range 8 the disrupters will average the same and the P-2's in the attacking fleet go up to 1/3 point/round while the defenders P-1's will average just over 2 points/turn so the attackers will be doing ~33 points while the defender is doing ~32 points. bad place to hang out for the attacker

as you continue closeing the P-1's get better faster then the heavy weapons do (although around range 2-3 the phasers of the attacking ships really come into play)

and also remember that this is for a base WITHOUT a defending fleet or minefield

bases are tough nuts to crack at this point in history, even without P-4's

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 01:43 am: Edit

David: Considering all the grief that the 12 x phaser-1 equipped starbase caused in previous EY playtesting, I doubt a base with many more phasers would work well.

EY bases are good damage sponges but not exactly imposing in terms of weaponry. Maybe a YDK would best be noted as a 8/16 unit. (Most YDKs have 14 x Phaser-1s and two racial heavy weapons; exceptions include Romulans and Carnivons.)

Might be interesting to try the seemingly different relative EY base versus ship abilities. Capitals are not the GW strongpoints of doom but the attacker needs to maintain a supply line very vulnerable to counterattack.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 08:46 am: Edit

Considering that most ships can move like 3 in this time period, and that it is all but impossible to build a base during the scope of a game, why would it matter if your bases live or not? You fight for 5 or 6 turns, then nothing is in range of either side and the war ends. KInda boring.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 10:45 am: Edit

David. Our group in currently playing a full Western Front EY campaign - bases are just not that tough. However, I don't see this as a problem. I see no need at all for any larger, more powerful base - if nothing else, it would be impossible to balance across the races (Kzintis and Hydrans have a tougher time against bases, as it is). It would also, IMO, change the flavor of EY in a negative way. I like the fact that EY base assults are not 16 hour marathons.

By Richard Abbott (Catwhoorg) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 07:41 am: Edit

Thinking about it.
Isn't the factors for certain Early/mid years ships in the Hydran 'War of Return' Scenario in a CL ?

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 04:15 pm: Edit

The Hydrans returned with MY ships about Y135. The Klingons left to defend the Hydran territory were the older ships: D4, F4, and possibly D3 and F3. There was also a further Hydran-Klingon war in Y137. Checking CL stack...

Andy: Any after action available on your EY game?