I think that most of the General options Ed has listed that provide "free stuff" are relatively balanced. The relationship seems to be 1 balance point = 2 economic points worth of "stuff". There are exceptions - for example PDUs, but in these cases, what is being gained is really not worth what it costs to build it.

Things like early x-Tech, early PFs and extra admirals are more difficult to quantify. It seems to me that rapid PF deployment should be worth more than 4, but I have little game experience using PFs. I echo John's opinion that an extra admiral is probably not worth 12 (although in strict economic terms, you could argue that the admiral is worth 5 ep/turn).

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Early or rapid PF deployement is a huge advantage, worth FAR more than 4.

Imagine the Lyrans getting PFs even early/faster than they do no............shiver.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Putting this into the "right" topic:


REVISED SUBMISSION:

PORK-BARROW POLITICS (Balance Option: -10)

Due to corruption and graft in the Federation Assembly, Star Fleet is often forced to buy hardware it may not need or want. In the most extreme example, because of manufacturing interests inside the Orion Enclave, they demanded continued production of the obsolete Light Cruiser (old), threatening to invoke their Right of Secession under the UFP Charter otherwise.

To that end, the Federation must build, by any means, at least one Light Cruiser, or variant thereof, per year starting in Y170 (if at War or Limited War).

The three Escort Cruisers listed for scheduled production in Y172 to Y174 fulfill this requirement. Failure to build these ships in two consecutive years actives Rule (503.51), and the Orion income is not available to the UFP Treasury until such time as the scheduled requirements are produced. This requirement is void for the duration if Orion neutrality if due to external interference (i.e., Klingons), but will reactive the year after Orion has rejoins the Federation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

New submission:

EARLY MODERNIZATION (Balance Option: +15)

Due to upgrades to older shipyards, the Federation can no longer produce the now-obsolete Light Cruiser or Destroyer class of ships by any means beginning S168. The CVA Escorts listed for scheduled production in Y172 to Y174 are require conversions using existing hulls, and two New Light Cruisers replace the three build slots for those turns.


Note: the value of this option is a wag. It costs the Feds 63 points to build the 3xECL + 6xDE; it will now cost them 9 points for the conversion plus 30 points for the 2xNCL added to the schedule, leaving them 24 EP ahead but also three hulls behind, and they can no longer build CL/DD as a substitute.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

INTUITIVELY OBVIOUS: These two options contradict each other and therefore can not be used at the same time.


Garth L. Getgen

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 01:40 am: Edit

eliminating the ability to build the old CL makes sense, but not the DD, it uses many components matching (or extremely similar to) the CA and NCL class ships. also remember that the X-ship built isn't a NCLX, it's a DDX

the DD design is just as current as the CA design

By Jonathan Biggar (Jonb) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 05:43 pm: Edit

Uh Garth? The correct term is "pork-barrel".

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 06:02 pm: Edit

"This here's the Pork Chop Express. Anyone got their breaker on, come back."

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Jeez Eric. Big Trouble in Little China?

Sheesh

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Another idea, tho proably not a balance option persay. And since I will freely admit to have never played far enough into the game for this to matter, I don't know if this is worth the electrons I'm burning up posting it:

Pre-paid Ship Contruction: Allow a race to pre-pay this turn up to one-half the cost (up to eight points) of any ship scheduled to be built the follwing turn. The ship in question must be large enough that it would not qualify for over-production. The rest of the money is paid on the turn the ship is built. If the ship is not built, the pre-payment money is lost.

Example, most the production schedule for most races lists a DN every other turn. They could, using this proposal, pay for half the cost of the DN on the off-turns. It would be hard for the Federation to take advantage of this because they build a DN every turn.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jonathan, Thanks for the spell check.


Garth L. Getgen

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Garth, races are already allowed to pull construction forward from the next turn---see Accelerated Production (431.37)

It allows you to buy a ship that is on next turn's production line, for a 3 EP surcharge.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 09:52 pm: Edit

Chris, I'm not saying that you can buy it early. Only that you can pre-pay for it now to be built next turn. But thanks ... I don't recall ever reading that rule.


Garth L. Getgen

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 09:59 pm: Edit

you can save the money and spend it on the next turn, what is the advantage of paying ahead of time? (I don't see any mention of a discount or anything else)

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 10:12 pm: Edit

David, true. I didn't think of that. Oh well ... wasted some electrons.


Garth L. Getgen

By Christoffer Eriksen (Toffer) on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 06:47 pm: Edit

I agree that an up-to-date list of balance options is needed.

Is anyone still working on this project? Or is it waiting until FO and EcoWar are out?

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 07:14 pm: Edit

Fighter Operations is supposed to be done yet this year.

EcoWar is due out a long time from now probably.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 04:50 pm: Edit

Another Balance Option:

The Kzinti Fleet Command had some serious challenges. With the loss of territory and the potential loss of the home world (and shipyard) the KFC (pun not intended!) available budget to spend on new ships was less than the shipyard capacity to actually produce hulls.

One option (not actually taken, historically) would be to sell dreadnoughts to the Federation, and use the money generated from the sale to pay for the construction of new hulls of other classes (such as CVS/CVL/CVE or BC/CW/FF hulls).

While there are a number of draw backs to this, not least of which is not having the DN's and the command ratings available, and not having the hulls available for use as CVA's the advantages include:

more EP available to allow the Kzinti to build more ships than otherwise would be available.

Gives the Fed's a more powerful DN class than the one available (the unrefitted DN class has COMPOT of 10 while the Kzinti DN is a 12 COMPOT).

Increases the number of DN's available to the Fed than build rate would allow...(not really o fair comparison, since the Pre war fed DN's are actually activations rather than new construction).

Could allow the Federation-Kzinti' to use the same general procedure that the Romulans used to receive the KC9 from the Klingons on turn 6 in F&E.

Assigning a value to this is a little difficult, as earlier posts have (repeatedly) pointed out that the original options were not valued correctly. This amounts to a 12 (or 16 point) EP subisdy for the Kzinti and a 12 point COMPOT addition to the Fed's...I suspect that this would be a 16 point value on Options Points.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 07:35 pm: Edit

You have got to be kidding...

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 12:45 am: Edit

General (653.01) Expanded Auxiliary Force +10
Z: Auxiliary limits (762.0) are increased by one large and two small hulls, except for the following: Hydrans and Kzinti add two LAVs and two SAVs, Lyrans add two LAPs and two SAPs, increase the AxS (auxiliary scouts) by one LAS and one SAS, the Kzinti add one LAD and one SAD. Can build a second ACS before counting them against the LAV/LAP limits. The Home Fleet adds one SAV (if applicable).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 07:50 am: Edit

Chris Fant:



just treat it as a early April Fools entry!

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Hydran Option: +? (I have no idea how to price this)

Secure Ship Yard
The Hydran Kingdom was conquered in its early space fairing history by the Klingon and Lyran Empires. After several years of occupation the Hydran navy with the backing of the Merchant Guilds managed to help build a navy large enough to drive out the invaders in a secret ship yard in the old colonies. That ship yard was not shut down after the Hydran Kingdom reclaimed its original capital. All Hydran new production begins in the Old Colonies off map area (except for FFs built at a SB). The Hydran Kingdom did not build a newer ship yard in the capital as a defensive measure.

Any thoughts on what this option might be worth to the alliance?

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Victory?

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Robert,

Funny. No, really. I laughed right way.

I'll admit that this would be a huge advantage and should be priced acordingly.

By Tim Losberg (Krager) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:23 pm: Edit

For the Hydran Shipyard.....
+20 and the everlasting shame of anyone who picks it

By Paul Bonfanti (Bonfanti) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Interesting idea.

Maybe tie it with
a) elimination of free Pegasuses. They can be subbed for DDs, but all must be paid for.
b) elimination of the IC discount
c) elimination of the guild money bonus.

Combined, these three probably still aren't enough. But, it would have the effect of making a Kzinti first strategy much more attractive. Down south, the Lyrans could focus on cutting off the Old Colonies from the capital, making it hard to build much.

By Scott Burleson (Burl) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:06 pm: Edit

We have played this option before, although it was before AO came out with all of the extra stuff Paul mentioned. We coupled this with basically the idea that the Hydran capital was offmap for all purpose except victory conditions, i.e. tugs are required to place PDUs on Hydrax, major conversion is off-map, capital hex is just a major planet with a SB for partial supply grid purposes, etc. Even though it saves the Hydrans the pain of rebuilding the shipyard, it makes it very easy and more importantly fairly painless for the coalition to go ahead and take the hex.

At the time we did this option, our group was having problems keeping the alliance in the game and this did help. Unfortunately, we did not get past about turn 8 when we used this option because of other issues, but the Coalition may still have won. They had taken Kzintai and 0617 by this point, even though the Hydrans were still a major thorn in their side requiring more resources than normal.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:54 pm: Edit

you would eliminate all the existing offmap freebees and as paul pointed out you still have some benifit to the hydrans, but nowhere near the +20 that was initially mentioned.

overall I think it would be an interesting idea, if nothing else I can't see why the hydrans would move their shipyard back to 607 after loosing it twice so in the ISC/andro/X2 era the shipyard should be offmap as per this option