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	Archive through September 24, 2004	18		09/24 03:59pm
	Archive through September 24, 2004	18		09/24 07:32pm
	Archive through September 26, 2004	22		09/26 02:15pm

How would forcing the Alliance to keep some of its NG ships off-map help balance a rule that hurts the Alliance?

Thanasis, I did say add a few NG ships to the off-map not take some from on-map and force them off. I think the number of NG ships is somewhat flexible. If so I was proposing adding 5-6 to a permanent off-map "defense squadron" whose sole purpose was defending vs raids.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 02:52 pm: Edit

Actually, the number of Fed NG ships is not at all flexible as Module R8 clearly defines the maximum size of the force.

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 06:53 pm: Edit

OK. National Guard ships are refitted Early Years ships, but they will have the movement characteristics of Early Years ships. (They also do not overload their heavy weps, much like EY ships, and there may be other similarities). This is the origin of my comment.

The National Guard Ships will also have a whole other set of limitations due to the nature of their duty. This has nothing to do with the EY origin of the NG ships. This I understand.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 08:42 pm: Edit

National Guard ships can overload their weapons.

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 10:27 pm: Edit

Stevenrossi: The NG ships are, except for speed, funtionally identical to any other warship. The only way they differ at the SFB scale is in only having 3 probes in the launcher instead of 5.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 10:39 pm: Edit

they also have fewer heavy weapons then GW ships

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 10:51 pm: Edit

Sandro: Numbers for many of the NG ships are pretty well pinned down in R8. That's why I assumed you were talking about a redeployment. For some of the ship types -- e.g., F-GCA, K-LD5, or Z-LCV -- we already have not just the number in service but where they're assigned. (FWIW, it seems likely that the Kzins and Hydrans at least will need to have some NG ships in their OMAs because they will probably be attached to major planets there... But in the case of the Feds, there aren't any planets in the OMA to own/operate NG ships.)

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 10:51 pm: Edit

Ah hah. I misread the part about overloading weapons. There are fewer parallels between NG and EY ships than I had thought. Forget that concept.

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 10:54 pm: Edit

Question on the K-LD5: It is not a refitted EY ship, but a (failed) modern design, per R8. Will it be treated as a modern type with just the political NG restrictions, or (given the engineering problems alluded to in the ship description) will it also have the speed-4 restriction and/or whatever else restricts the refitted EY ships?

Similarly, the H-GRV already in F&E: Should this be treated as a NG ship in StratOps?

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 10:58 pm: Edit

DLang: Yes they do. Also less hull, less warp, less shields...

I was just referring to special rules governing their use -- of which there really aren't any. In SFB, a F-GCA uses its PHOT just like a F-CL does -- or as any other ship with 24 warp and 2 PHOT would...

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 11:14 pm: Edit

Rather than trying to create a bunch of restriction on NG ships, how about giving them an important function that general keeps them too busy to go to war.

(A) Require all friendly planets be "gaurded" by either a NG ship or regular warship. (NG ships are a better deal, so will probably be used.) If not gaurded the EP output is reduced to 2 for a minor and 3 for a major.

(B) Require all friendly provinces to be "patrolled" by either a NG ship or regualr warship. (Same deal as above.) If not patrolled the EP output is reduced to 1.

(C) The supply grid can only be connected through "patrolled" friendly provinces, "captured" enemy provinces, or friendly controlled neutral zones. This applies to just the base-to-base connections, and does apply to the supply route for base-to-ship purposes.

(D) NG ships cannot be used to garrisoned enemy planets or provinces.

This should keep NG ships so busy that they won't get too involved in the main action of the war.

By Matt Shaw (Carne68) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 04:13 am: Edit

@John great idea

1 question...

Will conversions be available to take a GCA to replace a GCV?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 07:34 am: Edit

Matt: yes, but as it counts against your carrier limit I'm not sure why you would.

John W: doesn't really match the history.

Klingon "original D5". I'd have to go read the history. It would probably land in Nebulous Operations with the Fed CS.

GRV is a national guard ship.

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 07:35 am: Edit

Starsabre: If NG ships aren't otherwise restricted, you can bet I'd rather have a 6-pt (or even 5-7) LCA to play with than a 3-pt POL that dies instead of getting crippled, and of which I can call up scads for little money. Guess who gets guardship duty?

An idea which occurred to me: Beyond the limited movement (move-4 or whatever, maybe slow ship for pursuit, etc.) for NG ships, might it be sufficient to treat those which set up outside the capital as monitors, in that they can't leave their planets? If the NG ships have clear setup rules (e.g., you have to place a LCA at each major planet, a LFF at each major and minor planet, whatever) that can't be abused, but that result in some proportion of them being in the capital, treat those in the capital as released with the Home Fleet and the rest as under monitor restrictions. (I presume the density of defences in the capital would make those planets more willing to let their NG ships be `federalized' than the outliers...)

By Mark Ermenc (Mermenc) on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 11:54 pm: Edit

It is a terrible mistake to make the National Guard ships "slow unit retreat".

If you do make it so, they are not less valuable units, but rather much, much MORE valuable units.

Right now, if you miscalculate your attack and are forced to retreat with auxiliaries, all those auxiliaries die without appreciably harming the enemy fleet, as the enemy pursuit force lets the damage fall. If you'd thought ahead at the beginning of the battle and escorted the SAVs/LAVs, you may save a few, but that's it.

F&E warships are incapable of fighting a rearguard action to cover the retreat of these valuable fleet support ships.

Allowing these ships to show up in the slow-unit line permits full-COMPOT warships on that line. If there are enough of them to field a proper line, they may well discourage a battle. (especially since the enemy fleet is likely down six ships which are chasing down the pursuit battle)

The National Guard ships will join the auxiliaries and become a rearguard element, something no other ship can do. This is not a disadvantage. I would gladly pay money for a conversion to such capacity.

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 12:36 am: Edit

Mark,

whenever I attack with my Aux CVs, they are escorted. In fact, such battle forces are usually structured so that I can build a FULL battleline during the slow unit retreat, to discourage a slow unit pursuit. A Federation Slow Unit Retreat lead by a BTV is a sight to behold

With the addition of Aux Cruisers, there will be other ships capable of doing this. The NG ships will just be better at it.

By Trent Telenko (Ttelenko) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Some thoughts and questions:

Will destroyed NG ships will have a lower salvage return or the same percentage as their race's normal ships because there are other NG ships that can use the salvaged parts?

Will NG ships be eligable for the Depot repair rules in P.O.? If so in what size class tracts?

Will NG ships retreat from their assigned planets if they are going to fall? (Monitors can if all the defenses are gone.)

If they do, what restrictions will the former "monitor deployment" NG ships have?

My take: Displaced NG ships will be sent off map (or to the Gorn border for the Feds?) until their planets are retaken and they will come back via free strategic movement once the planet recovers from devastation.

You may want to add a series of generic HAC, LAC and SAC counters that are self generated (AKA free production) by planets that lose 'Monitor deployment' NG ships if they are undevastated. YCAs are replaced by HAC, YCA/YDD are replaced by LAC and YFF are replaced by SACs. YCV groups might be replaced by HACV and YPFT are replaced by HAPFTs.

Upon PFT deployment, HF deployment for the Feds, the appropriate NG should get a number of "outside the production system" PFT conversions. (It would be new LD4PFT for the Klingons per R8.)

Note: I don't see a Romulan KD4 PFT when they have all those Warhawk hulls to pass to their local House PFT defenses.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 01:44 pm: Edit

Salvage: Normal.

Depot: yes, cruisers in cruiser, destroyers in destroyer, frigates in frigate.

Retreat from planet after defenses gone: Yes, thereafter released.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 01:06 pm: Edit

Are there any NG ship classes missing? We are only accounting for SFB published classes so far. In the description for the Lyran LPF (R11.83), it is a converted LDD. The LDD hasn't been published, but should exist as part of the Lyran force. Perhaps there are other missing classes, such as a Lyran LCL and Kzinti LCL. Maybe there others. Need to figure this out to avoid later changes.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 01:13 pm: Edit

There will doubtless be more NG ships after Y2 gets published.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 06:01 pm: Edit

Hi!

One question about Local Defence ships:

Will the ISC ships from R8 be likely to go in this module (since ISC War will by then be in print), or would ISC War itself be a better place to put them?

(Finally, the possibility of adding ISC ships in more upcoming Fed and Empire supplements is on the table!)


Gary

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 06:19 pm: Edit

ISC local defense ships would go here.

By Kenny Bruce (Lt_Bruce) on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 09:59 am: Edit

If NG ships do almost nothing but provide a fraction more ComPot to certain planets it doesn't seem like something really worth having... You could give them more freedom of movement but say they can't
A. enter a province that borders an enemy province
B. enter a hex containing an enemy ship except by reaction and then when doing so will help defend the planet
C. end movement anywhere except on a friendly planet
or something like that?
I'm a new F&E player so these are just ideas but A and C would tend to keep them out of the main action.
The idea with C and A would be that if a province containing a planet became "front line" the NG ships would transfer out in favor of regular warships.

By Fabio Poli (Gambler) on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 01:42 am: Edit

this thread seems very old, but i wish to throw in my contribution.

NG units before called in fleet service are making the usual thing this sort of ships will do in peace times: custom duty, anti-pirates patrol, speed check and fine. Like Police ships but more province oriented. I'd like the idea they have to be "called up" as Police ships are. Frigates are done 1 (2 for FEDS and KLINGONS)/turn, DD max 1/turn but you must pay 1EP for setting up supply lines; CA 1 at year and 2EP. STARTING 1 TURN AFTER AT FULL WAR ECONOMY AND ACTUALLY AT WAR (klingon from turn 3, Feds from turn 10). Called up ships can be positioned at planets or SB, max 1 ships for any location.
The impact of NG should be less heavy this way.

LIMITS OF NG: they should stay in a province where a planet or SB are located. When assigned (like monitors) can't move from that province unless there are no more enemies 6 hex away. In that case the could be relocated.

Klingon's planets take pride to contribute national ships to the Empire, so Klingon NG ships should not be limited in their operations.

NG's RESERVE FLEET: Any race should have this fleet in the capital and will be released immediately and at no cost if any SB is destroyed or a enemy ship is 3 hex or less from the capital. I will be also released when at war against 3 races.

NG's CV groups: released when NG's RESERVE FLEET is released, those used by regular fleet as training facility should pay their fighters or lose their equivalent fighters factor from next year Free Fighters; the others should pay 3EP. They are active, but not released if the capital is under attack (they could be used in the capital).