Andy.

This is F&E, not SFB.

Richard

Yes, that was a major source for my lines of thinking in the second Fed-Zin war.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 04:41 pm: Edit

David Slatter:

But both are in the SFU. When I write stuff for SFB it cannot be in opposition to F&E (and many cool things have been edited out by the powers at ADB because of this) and the same goes for the opposite. You cannot ignore the relationship.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Steven. Working on it

David. What Loren said

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 01:10 am: Edit

Hasn't someone in authority said a LCA is a 6-point ship? That pretty strongly suggests that a YCA is a 4-6 or 5-6 -- but IIRC nothing changes from YCA -> LCA that would affect the defence factors.

If a quick-and-dirty conversion is needed maybe take GW factor and halve for the attack and multiply by 0.75 for the defence -- so a YFF would be maybe a 2-3 or so.

BTW, does anyone know if LCAs move in F&E scale as EY ships or as MY/GW ships?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 01:32 am: Edit

Steven. Ongoing afteraction for EY campaign now under Player Campaigns

By Allan MacKenzie-Graham (Amg) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 06:45 pm: Edit

Looking over other topics, National Guard ships are move 5 ships.

What about supply? At what point are EY ships released from a 3 hex supply path?

What are acceptable missions for EY tugs? How are GW tug missions modified for EY?

SVC decides the factors for ships, so perhaps we should ask directly. SVC, have you given thought to the factors for EY ships? Could you provide us with a guideline to help define the discussion?

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 09:34 pm: Edit

Allan: we know that the supply range during the Four Powers War is 4 hexes. It is reasonable to suggest that the 4 hex supply range goes as far back as the MY ships themselves.

It makes perfect sense when you consider that during the MY era, the supply ships were probably still of EY design: a generation behind. i,e. They move 4 hexes, and hence the 4 hex supply range.

As such, supply ships during the EY era are probably still using non-tactical warp, which has a (conjectural) movement of 3. So EY era has a 3 hex supply range therefore.

Can anyone tell me which CL has the most recent Early War preview? ...or where any Early War data is comming from except the conjectural stuff we discuss here? (I have Y1, etc.)

By Allan MacKenzie-Graham (Amg) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:18 am: Edit

I am missing several captain's logs in the mid 20's (but am picking them up one a month) so I would appreciate knowing if there is more recently released playtest (or other) information since CL12. I have Y1, but there is no mention of F&E in it that I can recall.
Y2 is in development (without an explicit publication date), so there is some discussion about the early years going on in that thread as well.
Also, I like Steve Rossi's suggestions for movement in the "operational movement 5 ships" thread. 4 for Y and 3 for W or NTW. Supply ships should be a generation behind.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 01:06 am: Edit

Amg: You might want to add CL #18 to you list of future pickups. That issue included a scenario about the Hydran Liberation which includes mixed MY and EY ships. Whether any part of that scenario will even remotely resemble the future F&E products covering the EY is a matter I don't know but it is a rollicking fun and short scenario.

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 05:14 am: Edit

Allan: In that post I was perhaps mistaken about W-Class vessels. Somebody suggested that they were speed 4 just like the EY ships, and that only the NTW ships are speed 3. It makes more sense, I suppose, that the transition to tactical warp would make a the difference.

I have just looked through my CL stack, and there really has not been a true 'Early Wars' preview as of yet. I do not really count the Stellar Dawn scenario, although you can have some fun with it. The premise of that scenario is that all EY ship classes would be roughly proportional to their GW counterparts, so just use GW ships with their printed factors in place of the EY classes. A free campaign plays very much like the Four Powers War on steroids.

By Thanasis Kinias (Tkinias) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 05:29 am: Edit

Steverossi: Is there any evidence that freighters really were a generation behind? AFAICT, in SFB, the freighters around in the Four Powers War are exactly the same as those around in the General War. The standard F-S and F-L date back to the beginning of the Middle Years.

OTOH, those freighters can only move 3 -- less than either GW or 4PW supply range.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 04:31 pm: Edit

I haven't read this thread yet but EY F&E brings one question to my mind;

Wouldn't tyhe Tholians be dispropotionatly powerful for the era and what exactly stops them from taking more space than they historicly had?

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 04:47 pm: Edit

It could be that the crystaline Tholian race takes a more 'geological' view of galactic events, and are simply slow to decide anything.

It could be that the Tholians are in fear of being hunted down by Seltorans and turned into radio parts. They are refugees and they dont really want any trouble with the locals either.

It could be that the Tholians are just snug in their Dyson sphere, and consider the rest of Alpha Octant a dismal wasteland nearly devoid of comfy radiation levels.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 04:57 pm: Edit

The answer to the Tholians is given in (YR7.0) of Module Y1. They didn't arrive until Y79 and they had no serious warships.

By Allan MacKenzie-Graham (Amg) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 08:04 pm: Edit

I don't know about the snug in the Dyson sphere, the Klingons fought them to the sphere but had to retreat at that point. For the Klingons to be that much of a threat with EY tech, they must have had some truly staggering numbers. Isn't that where the bulk of the D3s were destroyed? IIRC, the D4s were then culled by the Hydran war of return.

By Daniel Knudtson Thompson (Brezgonne) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 08:10 pm: Edit

John: No serious warships?

The Tholians were running around with Ph1s and the rough equivlent of EY CA shielding on their PCs.

I agree with Allan. The Klingons would have had to have a few hundread ships commited to be a serious threat.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 08:41 pm: Edit

I think the real problem was logistics, the Tholians had a NFF and a few PC's and the ability to produce only PC's. They probably lacked any orbital bases on arrival as well. I would imagine when the Klingon's first attacked the whole Tholian OB had less than ten ships.

With old style webbing it would take a lot of ships to keep defenses powered in an attack.

By the time the Tholians would have had enough warships to launch an attack of any kind (built DD's and had tug equivalents to support attacks)the Galactics had Ph-4 equipped bases and the Tholians had no real heavy units. I imagine during this time the Tholians were concentrating a lot of their resources to building their bases to hold off the Klingons (and reinforce Romulan border).

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 08:54 pm: Edit

Sorry, but the term "serious warship" came from (YR7.0) text. If you disagree, take it up with the designer. And even Ph-1's don't make a PC into serious warship.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:29 pm: Edit

John Wyszynski:

Sorry, but PC's with the Equivilent of an ECA worth of shields AND armed with phaser 1's IMO are indeed defacto 'serious warships' in comparison to what the neighboring races were armed with.

Romulans were still "sublight" at the time and the D3 and D4 cruisers are not superior to the Tholian PC's.

backed up with the capital defenses of the Tholian Dyson Sphere, the question is not "why the Klingon attack failed"... the real question should be "why did any Klingons survive the attempt?"

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:55 pm: Edit

The EY Tholians are just not that tough.

1. Command Rating. Big limits on fleet sizes.
2. Web Casters. They only have 2 NDDs; no other ships have WC.
3. Duels. While a PC can take out a D4, one-on-one, the NFF cannot.
4. Squadrons. 3 D4s have a decent chance of beating 3 PCs - the Tholian speed and shielding advantages go away quickly in multiple ship battles.

The speed, EW, and Ph-1s may seem like a big advantage, but they are all on small hulls. While they can hold what they have (due to Ph-4 bases), they have a difficult time going on the offensive.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:25 pm: Edit

Did they give the early years Tholians NDD's now? Pity they didn't survive, the Tholians could've cleaned up if they had.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 08:44 am: Edit

Jon. The Tholians have "always" had 2 NDDs and 4 NFFs. (They were the military force that came with the Tholians). All six ships were destroyed over the first few decades.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 12:30 pm: Edit

That does make the Klingon situation much more difficult. I would almost say then that the Tholians started out in this galaxy trying to rebuild their Empire. Their aggressive policies destroyed all their web casters and traumatized the survivors into developing their purely defensive fleet doctrine.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Jon Murdock;

It don't think that the Tholians ever tried to rebuild their empire in this galaxy, much as they might have wished to. Despite their superior (relative to EY ships) technology, their ships were simply too small and too few for any major conquests. Rather, I believe they used their capabilities to carve out a small enclave, but large enough to support the remnants of the race, and then defended it ferociously. This of course earned them the undying emnity of the Klingons since the enclave was in an area of space claimed (and partially colonized) by the Klingons. But the idea that the Tholians arrived in this galaxy and then set out to establish a true empire seems to me unlikely.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Andy Palmer;

I agree with some of your assessment in your October 10 - 10:55 pm post, but not all of it.

1. The Command Rating issue does indeed put a severe crimp in the Tholians' ability to fight fleet actions in EY.

2. Nothing to agree or disagree with. It's simply a statement of fact.

However...

3. I'm not a huge fan of the NFF, but it's not worthless in EY. It's poor shielding makes it a weak duelist but I think it can give useful service as a fire-support ship in squadron actions.

4. I think 3 PCs versus 3 D4s still favors the Tholians, at least on a floating map. But I will agree that it is a closer fight than the 1-on-1 duel is.

Just my .02 quatloos worth.