David, I have played F&E far more than 20 times. 4 or 5 times all the way through but that was before AO.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 03:18 pm: Edit

Perhaps those who wish to pursue the non-Omega discussion could start a dedicated thread where they can debate the issue, as I don't want to see the Omega discussions bogged down in this any further...

So, let's do a few straw polls:

1: Which large-scale conflict should the initial Omega campaign/map layout detail?
A. The 1st Great War

B. The 2nd Great War

C. The Andro-Souldra invasions

2: How many races should we include in the initial assortment (We can assume that for the time being the other races are treated in the same manner varoius neutral empires are in alpha F&E)?
A. 4 or 5

B. 6 or 7

C. All of them! (Crazy I know...)

3: WOuld we be better served by:

A. Working on a single race at a time (OOBs, ship ststs, special rules if necessary) and concentrating the discussions in this thread,

B. Set up a new thread for each race we work on, but only start a new race discussion thread once a playable level of the previous one is done (for example: Say we start with the Iridani, we work out a workable OOB and so on for them, start up a seperate thread for the Maesrons and bring them up to workable level while refining the Iridani in the original thread),

C. Start up enough threads for the initial races now and work on them concurrently, bouncing ideas back and forth as we go.

D. Work on all of the decided starter races and keep the work on each in this thread.

Gary

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 03:45 pm: Edit

1-A
2-A
3-C

Ryan

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 03:55 pm: Edit

I'm with Ryan (but it should be obvious from my previous posts)

1=A
2=A
3=C

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 04:05 pm: Edit

1-A
2-A
3-C

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 04:08 pm: Edit

While waiting on the election results last night I started to put togeather a gamebox for Omega with CB. I am starting with the Map for Omega One and when it is done I will send it out to those interested for review.

I will also start on counters for the races we choose to work on so we can have something to look at and push around.

Yes, I know I said I didn't have time to work on this, but I am going to put some other hobby stuff on the back burner to give us something to work on.

By Richard Abbott (Catwhoorg) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 04:19 pm: Edit

A
C
C

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Ok, so if we work with 4 or 5 races, who do we go with?

Gary

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 04:49 pm: Edit

The FRA could be a useful benchmark race. Just figure out where the CLA BC and such sit for Compot. Since they are so close to the Feds it should be fairly easy.

Then use the FRA to work out the other races.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Can't answer that one completely. My Omega stuff isn't with me here in Iraq. I'd go with the Maesrons and the immediate neighbors. Also the FRA might be a good one since we already the baseline CL and POL for them.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Ok, let's try it (we should keep this thread up for figuring out campaign sceanrios, comparing notes on OOBs and relative deployments and working out any other stuff which won't fit anywhere else)

Remember, post other suggestions for races here, we can use the FRA as the 5th (minor) race and work on 4 larger ones (I guess the Maesrons should be a shoo-in...)

Gary

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 05:16 pm: Edit

OK, going from memory, the races around the Maesrons.

1) Probr
2) Trobin
Chlophons (really kinda minor, could be taken over by the Kolighar like the Vudar in AO, but in reverse)
3) Kolighar
4) Vari

Loryllil are close to the Kolighar (so could possibly be included later, as they were only aggressive to protect the Singers, another Minor race until the Souldra invade)

FRA are surrounded by the Maesrons (like the WYN)
Qixa nebula are somewhere in there (like the WYN)
RYN nebula are in the Probr zone (like the WYN)

Alunda, include later
Branth, include later
Drex, include later
Worb, include later
Blosco, include later
Iridani, possibly for hire.
Hiver, include later (Lots of pieces)
Sigvirion, include later, or random monster-like take-overs of planets.
Ymantrin, include later, one-trick ponies to distract the Drex.
Nucians, haven't been released in SFB, but are a Pirate-race.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 11:15 pm: Edit

Short of going out & getting SFB Omega, is there a primer somewhere (or map or anything) that can help me understand the Omegans a bit better.

Scott's list certainly helps, but there are still a lot of holes

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 11:21 pm: Edit

I don't think there is a primer. The 4 Omega rulebooks are all that would be needed and there about 40 bucks for the lot.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 11:24 pm: Edit

The most recent CL has (IIRC) a good Omega breakdown, including several small maps.⁴²

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 07:00 am: Edit

I didn't write these, but they are some draft rules for the omega sector I pulled from somewhere. The OOBs and SITs that went with them are in the racial sections.

Federation and Empire
The Omega Sector

101.0 Introduction
Use all the rules of F&E as supplemented below. This is the first draft of these changes and may need some work. These first rules focus on the First cycle mostly.

101.1 Historical Backround-see QA1.0

101.2 Introduction to the game-
This version uses Aide de Camp to represent the map and pieces. That program is required.

101.4 Playing map.
The map is more dynamic then F&E. Boarders move and planets grow in population

101.7 Star Fleet Battles
I could create all kinds of ships in F&E. I am trying to only use the ones created in the Omega serias. A few nessessary ships were created (i.e. early tugs) Some ships were released in Captains log’s, I have not yet integrated them as they did not have all the info (years ect) Several ships were created, designated with the prefix O (for old or obsolete) like OCA, to be used until the defined ships come into production and replace them.

102.0 Explanation of Basic Terms
Movement- Many ships in the Omega sector have less power then in Federation sector. They have a new value called Movement that is their speed for all movement.
Province- Due to the changing boundries, the provences are not difined on the map. A provence is loosely defined as every 5 hexes.
Scout- not all ships with Electronic abilities are scouts. Not all bases have scout abilities

305 Capturing ships
I have not looked at all cases yet, but it looks like some races’s ships cannot be captured, or if captured, cannot be used.
Alurda ships (living ships) cannot be used by others
Hivers ships are to small to be boarded or captured

308.4 Maulers
Several ships to various degrees produce an effect than is similar to maulers. Noted in ship discription.

308.8 SIDS
I have not assisgned how many SIDS the many new bases require yet ??

410.0 Supply System
(There may need to be some rule to prevent how large fleets get in peace time. Somehow based on number and size of fleet and economic base. Maybe forcing a mothball fleet)

411.0 Supply Routes
Supply route distance is limited to 2 hexes in the First Cycle (Y 50-100) , 3 Hexes in the second cycle, 4 hexes in the third cycle, 5 hexes in the forth cycle, and 6 thereafter.
(This is a rule I am testing, it seems to get the right size in the first cycle. I set up the bases and race expansion assuming this, so the starting map would change some if this changes. This also represents the reduced speeds of freighters in the sector)

413 Supply grid
see 411

414.1 Convoys uses as supply points
see 411

420.7 Special repairs
Alunda living ships can repair themselves after battle. (will test to see if this is to powerful)
Drex. The currect rules for Drex cause shock damage only to their attack factor, but it repairs itself during emergency repair if in supply.

421 FRD
They probably should not be allowed till the third cycle??

422 Repair ships
I have left repair ships in for all years, since some races bases do not have repair capability

430.1 Economic Income
Every 5 hexes are worth 2 points, the spreadsheets allow for fractions.
The Probr are suppose to have a poor economy, every 7 provences is 2 points.
During the first cycle only:
Capitals are fully developed. Including major and minor planets.
Other Major planets only produce 3 points
Other Minor planets produce 0 points.
(The empires only found the planets within the last 10 years, it should take about 50-100 years to move 10 billion population and set up an economy.)

430.2 Provences and enemy action
Since I do not have rigidly defined provences. When an enemy ship occupies friendly hexes. That hex and all adjacnt hexes are disrupted and only worth ½ value unless occupied by a friendly presence.

430.5 Off map areas
There isn’t any

431.3 Overbuilds, overproduction
I don’t think that the Chlorophon (trees) and Alunda (living ships) should be allowed to overbuild, but am worried that they will then not be able to use all their economic points. For now triple their overbuild costs instead of double

431.5 Starbase Frigate production
There are no starbases, but I created a Dry Dock unit that has starbase production and repair abilities. It can use this rule.

433.1 Where converstions are done
Conversions can be done at a dry dock

503.0 Neurtal races

The Nucian do not yet have any defined ships and seem to survive with mine warfare. Assume that you cannot go there.
Same for the Rysish, but it appears to be a Wyn like nebula
Treat the YRA hex has a hazard until Y130. It cannot be owned. Any fleet traveling through it are destroyed on a roll of 2 on 2D6. Ships cannot end move there
The Bolosco and Branthodon regions do not yet have defined ships. Assume that they can adaquatly defend and allow no movement

505.0 Survey Ships
only the Maesron have survey ships at so far.

505.2 Exploration
(a draft set of exploring rules)
To explore unowned space:
Each turn during Economic phase each race can explore to add to their empire
(The Maesron and Probr conducted long term expansion projects. The Drex were not actively expansionists. Several smaller defensive races do not expand)
Most races can pick one hex per turn and try to survey it for expansion. It must have a ship in it and be in supply, and connected to existing empire.
Roll 2D6 to see if it is added. A survey ship needs 2-7. A scout ship needs 2-4, other ships need 2.
Maesron and Probr may try 2 hexes a turn. Drex one hex a year.
May only explore new territory during peace. Maesron can expand one new hex a year during war.

Use the same rules to occupy enemy territory during war but one hex for each race each turn? This permenatly converts territory so it does not have to be guarded of occupied


508.3 Defense Battalions
Early Defence Battalions worthout fighters are called PGB. In the first cycle planets away from the capital only start with half the usual number.

509.0 Tugs
I gave each race a weak tug class to start with called Otug. There are only cargo pods so the only roles of the tug are
C Move a mobile base
D as a supply source ??
H deliver Economic points ??
K Deliver Defence Battalions
M to operate with printed value as a ship
N to deliver troops

510 Mobile bases
I give every race a Base Station. It requires a tug to construct. It costs 10 if set up at a planet or Dry Dock. Else it costs 15 to make one.
You may convert a Base station to a Dry Dock. It requires a tug. It costs 10 to convert.
Every race gets a base arround y97. They are different. Some can be moved. Some do not have EW or repair.

511.1 Contents of Capital Hexes.
I am still deciding the contents, since that is my best tool for economic balance in the first Cycle. Tenatively every capital has a capital and a minor planet. The Maesron have 3 capitals.

511.5 Procedures for capital assualt
Tenatively every capital has a capital and a minor planet, in separate boxes.

600 Scenarios

661 The first cycle (Y50-100)
Per the timeline in Omega 1, the Vari made repeated border attacks between Y 30-Y50 resulting in 3 border wars. When they attacked again (see 732.1) in Y50 the Maerson had enough at went to war.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 07:23 am: Edit

Credit Marc elwinger with that. More of his ideas...

Ideas and Changes

Survey (not sure how to represent on map survey. Also trying to find some reason for peace other then to prevent economic collape. But the Maesron grew 200 hexes in 35 years and grew during the first cycle wars.)
A Survey ship (only Maesron have them so far) in a neutral hex can survey it 1-3 on a D6
A scout in a neutral hex can survey it on a 1 on D6.
A generic ship in a neutral hex can survey it on a 2 on 2D6.
If successful and if the hex is in supply, it may be added to the empire.
A hex from another empire does not need to be surveyed. Territory can only be added while at peace. (Exception Maesron and Vari and integrate one hex per turn) Every 5 hexs (7 for Probr?) count as a provence. With veriable provences it will be hard to tell if ships in enemy territory disrupt provences

1. The first war starts at Y50, befor most races have bases but after they set up an empire, so I give them some early limited bases. Some civilian equipment is available early, BS (Base Station (a weak BATS) to extend supply range and link supply grids), Dry Docks (Allows lesser conversions, construction of Frigate class ships, repair without the defence of a SB). Requires a tug and the high cost represents a fleet of freighters shipping all the components in.

2. Some cojectural ships are created. Like older versions of Cruisers ect. Prefixes with O, (ie OCA is Old Crusier). I assume the Maesron and Vari did not go to war with only frigates in Y 50. I made these particulaty weak for their cost so players will replace them as soon as a replacements become available. I gave each race a generic so that they would be able to set up bases and move DEF Dn's arround but no pods

3. I am considering a rule drafted for one of the early 4 power scenarios. Supply ranges are at 2 hexs in Cycle 1, 3 in cycle 2, 4 in cycle 3, 5 in cycle 4, 6 after. I based the position and number of bases on this so if no used, they would be different.

4. Due to recent colonization in the first cycle, major planets only produce 3 economic points and have 2 GPB. Minor planets do not produce extra economic points but have 1 GPB and count as a supply nodes. Capital produces normally and has full compliment of GPB. (just surveying a suitable major planet does not move 9 billion people there and get an instant economy. I figure is still takes 50-100 years from survey to full production). I assume capitals are fully developed, I have not listed the number of major or minor planets in the capital. That will be a major tool to play balance the economy.

5. Countries may choise to go to limited war instead of full.

I am trying to keep the number of factory builds to about 50% of economy to represent newly developing economies. Soaking up the rest of the income with overbuilds. Even 50% may be to high as It will allow the races at peace to fully produce, unless I include some kind of pre war construction.

I assume the large battles of the first cycle wars are new to everyone. All ships reduce their command rating by 2 (exceptions: ships with 4 command become 3, ships with 3 command become 2). Second cycle reduces by 1.

The map may change some as I look at the latter wars.

Notes and rules on each race. (Maesron and Koligahr probably should get some kind of special ability)

Maesron are the base race that I compare to so they have few special abilities. They have the only defined survey ship. They use seeking weapons, but like the Kzinti, that is just part of thier combat factor most of the time. Later they get some Drone bombardment like ability. Thier torpedoes get more effective in Y78. Not sure how to represent that since I don't want more ships just for the torpedoes and adding one combat factor would make them to powerful

Koligahr. Another vanilla race. I think they can only construct ships at planets by the race discription. The CAD is listed as very effective against the Maesrons torps, but poor vs everyone else so I give it a better def only vs Maesron.

Trobrin. With the armor I am rating them better on defence so a CA is 7-9. I did not think the 3 armor of a FF was worth the extra rating. Having problems with the frigate variants. The FF as a 5-5 cost 4. And the FFL as a 6-6 cost 5, the FB has trouble fitting between without making one of them obsolete

Vari. Ships seem slightly better on defence so I rated them that way. The CAP ability seems to be best represented as a mauler. Given the history, I think they should randomly attack sometimes. I think any fleet other then the home fleet, should attack the nearest enemy, if the enemy is in a hex that the Vari would be in supply in, on 1 on a D6. This is determined before other movement.

Pbobr. To represent the weak economy, maybe every 7 hexs count as a provence. But I factored slightly cheaper costs on the ships accourdingly.

Chlorophon. Ships seem to be better offence. One way to represent their ability to control the battlefield with their weapons to prevent high speed attacks is to prevent directed damage against them. Their racial tendency to procrastinate may be implemented by a roll for each moving ship, on a 6, it does not move. I am considering no overbuilds representing the slow growth of there leaders. But then where can they spend any extra income? Not sure how to represent the ships (DDE, FFA) with extra transporter bomb abilities. Meant to fight fighters, but hard to use that way in F&E. Maybe limit persuit to one less ship or double there combat value when being persuid

Drex. Ships seem to be very good offensive at long range and the supercomputers should make a signifigant effect. But their SFB point value is normal for their size. And they use limited ammo. I decided to give them very high attack factor and shock. The shock represents the ammo. Limiting each ship to several rounds of a big fight then out of ammo. If they roll shock only their attack factor is halved and shock repair is automatic after the fight if in supply.

Alunda, the large ships have 2 special electronic effects, so I gave all large ships EW=1, but not scout abilities. The smaller ships don't have the electronic weapons and don't have the power to play with. I said the ships self repair at no cast after battle. But that may be to great an advantage. Ships have a weaker attack factor compensating.

Hivers get fighers early. Since they are other wise underpowered I use the casual carrier rules to keep ther costs down.

Sigvirion. Not yet sure what is special. A possible rule is that every ship gets a G factor usable only against planets. Not sure how to take planets away from them???

Loriyill. I decided that the fire shield sets them apart. Since it is visible and the attacker can pick other targets sometimes, I said that 2D10% of the attacker damage is added to the damage that the Loriyill deal. This is the base damage before maulers etc that effecting it. Raised the cost of the ships a little to effect that. This extra damage cannot be directed by the Loriyill.

I will try to put my ship values here , but the tabs may go ballistic when I submit them
My draft ship values.

The command values are wrong, will use the published command values for the ships, reduced as stated in the first cycle.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:22 am: Edit

DSlatter, I haven't looked through the rules set fully, but at a glance they look pretty good. Keep up the good work.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:58 am: Edit

Looking over my article in CL29 (shameless plug)

For any introductary F+E Omega scenario, I'd vote for the 2nd Map (~Y125?) from the back of Omega 2, that is about the time of the 1st Great War.

Some earily carriers are available to some races, but are limited to SC-4 currently (yeah no carrier-fleet battles).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 02:33 pm: Edit

So, as regards other races which to start off with (aside from the Maesrons) we could settle on the Probr, Trobrin, Kolighar and Vari for the time being, or is there another race which would be better served taking one of the above's place?

Gary

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 02:45 pm: Edit

No, no other races.

The only other major "players" are the Alunda and Hivers.

Drex are really content with what they have
Worb fight the Drex+Hivers.
Branth fight Alunda+Hivers.

Iridani, no territory
Sig= spying/secret mostly, because once they are found, they get smacked down.
'Phons, not aggressive
Lorillyl, not really aggressive except about Singers or Souldra
Singers, dinky
RYN+Qixa, Nebulas only.
Blosco, Commercial Convoy counters really.
Ymatrin, one-shot ponies against Drex.

Nucians, Pirates
Paravians, Pirates again

Souldra+Andros late-war (Y180+) invaders

I probably forgot 1-2

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 02:55 pm: Edit

So,

Assuming we can leave the rules forthe pirate races out (or use the Orion rules for them) for the time being, can anyone here create a single subfolder for all of the Omega stuff and put the various race-specific threads (and this one) in it, as opposed to having them spread out on the Proposals board as they currently are?

Gary

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 04:50 pm: Edit

Forcing counting of every hex each turn to figure economy is going to be difficult and time consuming. Having fixed provinces and requiring surveying of 1/2 hexes to get 1/2 the province income and all the hexes to get the full province income would probably be easier. Planets have to be surveyed to be activated. The Probr would have an overall economic penalty (would receive 75% of total).

Do Omegan races need/use Commando ships the same as Alpha races? Scott has posted a possible need for Commando ships with the list of each race. What if Omegans only use auxilliary troopships?

Also, on the point of tugs. Do Omegan's use tugs or perhaps, unlike Alphans, they use Convoys to accomplish the same tasks? Allowing convoys to move PDBs, MBs, upgrade bases, would eliminate the need for tugs. Aux Troopships would eliminate the only other tug mission given.

It seems most races lack ship classes between FF/DD and CA. This will result in fleets of frigates being lead by a few cruisers. Does the history reflect this?

The minor shipyard and PRD rules in PO probably eliminate the need for the drydock rules.

To eliminate the 'full construction' while at peace due to small production limits, limit the military construction budget to 50% of the current economic setting while at peace. That way, a race at 'peace', can only spend 25% of its allowed economy on construction. The rest has to be spent on repairs and/or infrastructure (Colonies, bases, etc).

The Maesron torpedo enhancement could be represented by a +1 BIR modifier, if it is such a significant improvement. 2.5% increase in damage is only one or two extra damage points in a medium fleet battle. A slight advantage.

On the Chlorophon, just give the DDE and FFA the ability to destroy 1 attrition factor for free per battle round, the same as X-ships in Alpha.

Drex, can't use the traditional shock rules, since it normally results in a crippled ship. Perhaps some out of ammo markers will be needed?

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Craig, lets put it this way, ALL referances to Marine ships is empty right now in Omega.

Some might use Aux's only, others Warships.

But with the 5 'core' races (M, K, T, P, V) their borders fluctuate so much, that Commando Ships would be warranted then Aux's as backup.

By Steven Rossi (Steverossi) on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 05:37 pm: Edit

I think that Omega F&E is really keen and all, but it is no secret that I wish Early Wars got this much attention. Still, a new map and new races are very cool.

Attention Administrator: Topics have been added for each of 5 Omega races. Would it not be desirable to place these 5 as sub topics inside of an "Omega Races for F&E" master topic.