Andy, we liked the Academy package. We're trying to find a couple of other educational packages that assorted military (and non military personnel) would get, and generalize it into an Education System.

But they become feats that CAN be selected with a bonus feat, not ones that are mandatory to a class.

Do you see the distinction? I'm trying for something I think is subtle here.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 07:30 pm: Edit

We liked the idea, Andy, but it was hardly anything new. GPD had it, and PD20 should have been sent to us with it.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 08:35 pm: Edit

If you have a highly technical job, like meteorology for example, the officers might have a much deeper understanding of the theory behind the job, whereas the enlisted would be more skilled in the day-to-day work. The officer has the education into fluid dynamics and autmospheric physics, and thus can write the formulas required to create a computer forecast model. The enlisted guy has the training and experience to take the model output charts and analyze they to compose a forecast for a specific location. The enlisted weather guy is also the one that briefs pilots their in-route weather.

The same could be said for engineering. The officers understand the physics behind warp drive, but it's the enlisted tech that keeps the engines working. Of course, some officers will get their hand dirty; some will stand back and tell the enlist what to do.

The point I'm trying to make is you can't simple say the enlisted should have +8 in three skills and the officer should have +3 in eight skills. It doesn't always work that way. Also, senior enlisted will have a broad range of skills, including leadership ... most senior enlisted will be more capable than most junior officers and even some mid-grade officers.

There's no hard-and-fast rule you can make. They best you can do is come up with reasonable guidlines and explain the rationale behind them.


Garth L. Getgen

By Joseph R Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 10:14 pm: Edit

While doing my one week OCS cruise aboard a 378 WHEC the technical resource support at Atlantic Area for all 378s was a Chief Master Machinery Technition. The new Ensign in engineering was being trained by an E8 MK. He was an USCG Academy graduate in engineering. Mr text book meets the Senior Chief, keeper of practical knowledge.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 12:02 am: Edit

SVC. The concept is not found anywhere else in D20, as far as I know, so I just sent the one sample to you and JT to see if it even worked. It'll definately make most D20 players raise eyebrows, but I tried to keep in as much of the D20 spirit as possible. It's certainly not a natural fit.

Ken. I'll create D20 version of the other GPD educational packages this week, following the same model. I don't understand your Feats comment - the educational packages will provide certain skills at certain ranks and will provide certain feats, all for the fee of a certain amount of your starting skill points. As the Star Fleet Basic Training will cost less than the Star Fleet Academy, two characters, of the same class, with the same Intelligence bonus, one officer and one enlisted, will have a different amount of remaining rank points to use to either improve provided skills or add new skills (i.e. the officer will have less). If you wanted, it would be pretty easy to add a Skill Focus Feat to the Enlisted (SF Basic Training, etc.) packages but, as stated previously, it will have varying degrees of applicability, depending upon the character class and focus - given the use of the Educational packages, I don't think its necessary.

By F. Douglas Wall (Knarf) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 01:20 am: Edit

I wouldn't even insist on Skill Focus feats. Since Skill Focus has no prereqs and my proposal for "certification feats" has prereqs, characters should probably get a bit more for selecting it. Also, it doesn't have to be direct plusses to rolls. A possible "engineering certfication feat" may allow a character to perform repairs in less time or squeeze slightly more performance out of a piece of equipment.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 08:32 am: Edit

FDW. What you're describing sound like some of the class abilities gained at certain levels.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Andy: If you're going to do it, do it now, by the end of the week I will have had to have somebody else do them. We start printing in about 10 days.

My general philosophy (and understanding of the d20 market) is that a product should
1. use mostly rules and concepts they've seen and accepted before.
2. use entirely new rules and concepts only where you have to, and in small enough doses that the d20 veteran doesn't get the feeling that he's not playing d20 any more.

In our case, the promotion system, concept that not all characters start equal, officer/enlisted differentiation, and educational templates should be enough new material to cover the new concepts from SFU and about as much new material as d20 players can absorb.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Andy, please email me at support@starfleetgames.com - I have something I need your input on.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Ken: You said four hours ago you were on your way over and I've been waiting. Your cell phone doesn't answer so I'm going to send the K9 rescue team out.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 07:15 pm: Edit

I need two volunteers to proofread PD20. Gets you a free copy. Would be nice if at least one of you had never read GPD. Obviously, both need to be d20 players who will know what's missing (if anything).

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 07:23 pm: Edit

PICK MEEEEEEE!!! I volunteer, and this will give me something to do besides study my books and dream about term papers.

Mike Grafton
Leanna is sending an order (with CL31 in it) Monday to me!

btw, the MEEE thing would be much funnier if you had read the Fenyman autobio story about hypnotism first...

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 07:25 pm: Edit

tho I don't play d20. Don't need any free stuff, the thrill of being a proofreader would be enuff.

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 08:21 pm: Edit

I do play D20 and would be willing to proofread. I have read both GPD and the original PD (so I can't give you a cold reading). I am willing to proofread with or without compensation. OTOH as a dyslexic I must admit that if you want spelling and grammer checked there are better choices for readers, rules consistency I can check.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 11:04 pm: Edit

I was think of an idea that might work to create the officer/specialist differenciation.

What if the number of skill points you have to spend on skills not only gets kicked up by your Int, but what if the number of skills you can spread it on is limited by your wisdom.
Then we say that Officers have +2 to Wisdom ( and -1 to Str and -1 Con.

The net result only influences the extremes but basically the enlisted men can't generalise their skills as well as their officers because the officers have higher Wisdom.

I probably should have mentioned this as a possibility but "build a limit to the diversity of skills based on Wisdom" seems like a big change and thus didn't bring it up.

On proof reading...I could as a friend lent the PHB to me and I'm familiar with the basic incarnation, but my spelling in unbelibly bad.
Is it a PDF file or a bunch of papers ( surface mail to OZ would set you back a heck of a long time )?

By Scourger (Scourger) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 11:24 pm: Edit

I volunteer to proofread. I read GPD but only the flavor text in anticipation of PD20. I know little about SFU. I know much about d20. I've played and run d20 games since it released.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 11:30 pm: Edit

Something in GPD might be used as an idea on how to handle your officer/enlisted diff question here:

GPD4 page 136, there is a list of different technical systems (transporters, phasers, etc), and each has at least two skills assigned to it: one for use/operation, the other for maintenance/repairs.

Enlisted personnel are the ones who do all the maintenance and know how to resolve the nuts-and-bolts issues. Officers are the ones who are in charge of how the equipment is used. For example, even though an E3 may be the one who pushes the firing key, he doesn't touch it until an officer says "shoot". And the firing procedures are written and vetted by Officers.

Try splitting things up along those lines. An officer will be heavy on operation and light on maintenance, while enlisted skill levels are biased in the opposite direction. If you want ratios, I'd say 30%/70% or 70%/30% would be a starting point.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 11:55 pm: Edit

Scourger:

One thing to know about the SFU is that on this BBS we use our real names.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 12:04 am: Edit

MJC. That wouldn't work in D20 because limiting the number of skills would destroy certain character classes. So many basic things are covered by skills (spot, listen, etc.) that any usable limit would be ineffective to do what you are trying to do.

Gary. I agree. Unfortunately, D20 doesn't fit well to that scheme as it doesn't have distinctive operations and repair/maintenance skills in the way that GURPS does. I must admit that, even though I'm a D20 player, GURPS is a better fit for the SFU.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 09:10 am: Edit

Scrounger: You need to re-register with your real name and not post anything else under that handle. I'll have the Sysop delete the "scrounger" identity. We use real names here.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 12:06 pm: Edit

SVC. I sent the complete Academy templates last night; you lucked out in that the NBA Finals game was very one-sided.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Andy: I didn't think so either, but as the closest I've gotten to D20 is NEVERWINTER NIGHTS, I figured there might be a way that I wasn't aware of. Oh, well.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Andy: got them; Ken is working on them.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 04:12 pm: Edit

Johnathan, Andy, or others: have any of you guys given any thought to PD20 RPGA adventures?

Not for this years convention season, of course. But eventually ... ?

By Barton Pyle (Bart) on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 11:12 pm: Edit

I just got my copy of PD d20 and was wondering. Where is the char sheet?