Back in 2000, during a joint space capabilities exercise with the Navy, I’ll never forget leaving the USS Coronado at the end of a duty day and walking down the pier with our Brig General, three USAF O-6s (Colonels) and our Navy O-4 escort. As we walked, the USS Bremerton (a Los Angeles class nuclear powered attack submarine) was tied to that same pier and the General remarked that he had never been in a sub before. Our escort, a long time submariner, said if we wanted, he would ask for an impromptu tour of the sub. The General agreed and we followed our escort down the gang plank (or whatever it is).

The deck officer (a very young navy NCO in his whites) was caught off guard and his eyes got really big when he saw the amount of brass behind the escort. The DO, reported that the sub was undergoing an minor overhaul and was “not ship-shape” for such a high brass inspection. We told him we were not here to inspect but just to see the inside of a modern day sub. The DO called the officer of the day (OOD) (a navy O-3) and when he came up, he was as shocked to see us standing there in flightsuits wanting to take a quick-look and he too reported, “but we are not ship-shape sir”. After a moment of discussion, the OOD agreed, and general was “belled” aboard, we saluted the OD and Colors and received one top-notch tour followed by the General handing out his military RMOs (round metallic objects) to the OOD (who gave the tour) and the DO.

Since the exercise was a CNO sponsored event, the word of our visit aboard the USS Bremerton was noted in the exercises after action message by the CNO where he praised the crew for their action in supporting the USAF senior delegation.


It turns out the Bremerton’s captain was on TDY for a month and returned to the message from the CNO about our visit.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Continuing my previous post:

All my operational assignments in USAF, except for two and a half years as an Air Liaison Officer (ALO) with the U.S. Army, were as a Weapon System Officer (WSO)/Electronic Warfare Officer (EWO) in F-111s. (A WSO is what the Air Force calls a rated Navigator who flys fighters, and yes, for these purposes the F-111 was a fighter.)

Fighter crew dogs are notoriously casual about rank. It is very common in USAF for you to be the same rank as your boss. (A Fighter Squadron Commander is a Lieutenant Colonel. So is his Operations Officer.) This struck most of my Army friends during my ALO days as a little weird. I gather it either doesn't happen in the Army or is at least very rare.

What struck them as really weird was that you could end up being under the authority of someone you outranked, and not just in a training environment. This can happen in several ways.

1) In a two seat (F-111, F-15E) or larger (bomber, tanker, or transport) aircraft, a Lieutenant pilot is in charge of the aircraft even if his navigator is a Captain or Major (or occasionally even higher). "Pilot in Command" means exactly what it says. This is very common. Suppose a new Lieutenant in an F-15E Squadron has just finished his upgrade training and is now technically a Mission Ready pilot (which is a formal designation with specific requirements, including a Check Ride), but very inexperienced. The Squadron leadership will crew him with an experienced WSO, rather than a new WSO as inexperienced as he is.

2) A former A-10 pilot (now a Major) is returning to the cockpit after a non-flying staff assignment. But he is going to an F-16 Squadron. He has completed his F-16 upgrade training and is now Mission Ready, but he doesn't have enough F-16 experience yet to qualify as a Flight Lead (also a formally defined requirement). He may well end up flying as a wingman to a Flight Lead who is a Captain, but who has never done anything operationally other than fly fighters. Though the Major may have more total flying time, he is "rusty" coming off his staff tour, and doesn't have nearly as much F-16 time as that Captain does. So the Captain is simply better qualified to lead the mission. This isn't as common as Case 1), but it definately does occur.

3) A "Package" requires 12 F-16s loaded up with air-to-ground ordnance to be escorted to be escorted by 4 air-to-air F-15s. The F-16 Wing is given Mission Commander resonsibility in the Air Tasking Order (ATO - an old term and I'm not sure if it's still current) and they select a highly experienced F-16 Major as the Mission Commander. The F-15 four-ship is being led by a Lieutenant Colonel who is also qualified as a Mission Commnder. But the F-16s have the hammer on this one, so the Major is in charge of that package.

Note that all of the above refer to specifc tactical environments. In a non-tactical environment the higher ranking officer is entitled to all the respect of his rank.

I don't know if any of this is even remotely useful for Andy's fiction. But in the real world, rank not only often functions differently than civilians believe, it can function differently than members of other Services believe.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 01:11 pm: Edit

Alan, I was in the Navy, so I know how we do things better than how the Army and Air Force does them; I'll definitely take your word on it, especially as the only times I've been on an Air Force base has been as a civilian, after I got out. Come to think about it, the point in time I was told this was back in Boot Camp, so I'm almost certainly farther out of date than you are.

In fact, the one time I did see Air Force officers outside and on the deck of my ship, they weren't saluting anyone. We had just fished them out of the water after their A-6 decided to quit flying, well within sight of the Vietnamese coast at the north end of the DMZ -- hugs and kisses were more like it.

I can't recall anyone saluting in any of the STAR TREK shows, either. Maybe a Bajoran militia on DS9 once or twice, but that's it.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Gary, my wife retired from the Navy Reserves. She said that, yes, one does salute when formally reporting to the CO or XO in the Navy. This normally only happens if one is in serious trouble, of course, but her CO had new personnel formally report for their Welcome Aboard interview.

Also, for her retirement ceremony, all military personnel in uniform, including those in the audience, had to wear hats even tho it was held indoors.


Garth L. Getgen, MSgt USAF

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 08:14 pm: Edit

Actually, that reminds me of something I once heard.
That people in shock (say after a airplane crash) will recognise people in hats as having authority and follow their instructions.
I wonder if the captain should wear a hat, even in doors.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 03:17 pm: Edit

When a higher ranking officer enters a briefing room to give a briefing, would all in the room stand at attention until told to be seated? (I think I remember reading this rule, but it never came up in JROTC ).

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Yes.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 04:29 pm: Edit

A thought from another thread.

I hope the various Starfleet sub-organizations are discussed.

Transportation Command

Support and Logistics Command

Construction Battlions

National Guard and how it interfaces with Starfleet.

Police and how they interface with Starfleet.
Marines and Millitia

A typical Troop Transport Sqadron and a discussion of where and when large troop deployments occure.

Prime Teams (naturally) but also Special Forces.

By William F. Hostman (Aramis) on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 11:43 pm: Edit

Gary:

The only salutes, per se, I can recall were all by Klingons or Romulans, the Mirror Universe, or NaZi's. Both K&R in both TOS and TNG, and both using the "chest thump" style ("See, I'm not reaching for a blade").

Klingons use it in Day of the Dove. Romulans in Ballance of Terror.

The Mirror Universe salute is again the chest thump. (Mirror Mirror)

The NaZi's, of course, use the old roman salute... ("See, Nothing up my sleeve")

I can't recall seeing anything like the US/UK/French styles ("Let me lift this visor up") of salute.

During the Excalbian episode, the do come to attention, and play ruffles and flourishes...

I would expect that Starfleet doesn't salute, due to the wide variety of different backgrounds and traditions.

I do note also that coming to attention as an officer approaches is part of TOS... but only in the halls, and only for security guards. For SFU, a marine tradition?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 11:48 am: Edit

Star Fleet salutes on the appropriate occasions.

By William F. Hostman (Aramis) on Sunday, April 02, 2006 - 04:41 pm: Edit

What are the "appropriate" occasions?

(I ask because the TOS footage shows some clear differences from what I learned reading the LPM, NS I-IV texts, and the BJM 19th.)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, April 02, 2006 - 04:53 pm: Edit

TOS was done by civilians who hated the military and didn't understand it at all. I wouldn't consider it definitive on anything.

By William F. Hostman (Aramis) on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 01:55 pm: Edit

TOS is also the only "military" with which many players will be familiar.

Not all military persons have read the LPM, either... and having spent cadet time in both Navy and Air Force uniforms, the saluting regs do differ...

So, since (if) the SFU does salute, we need a listing of those appropriate situations. Prevents arguments down the road.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 02:37 pm: Edit

My list of things to do is long and gets longer. It does not include compiling a list of appropriate times for saluting. How about "don't worry about it"? If I'm editing a piece of fiction and think somebody should be saluting I'll add it; if I think they shouldn't I'll delete it. Nobody, anywhere, has any need to "argue" about whether some fictional character in some theoretical situation might or might not salute.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 03:04 pm: Edit

SVC: If there is a large enough call perhaps a web based article could do. I agree, I'd rather not have paper space taken up by the issue.

I remember some D&D playing where the GM was super strict and would bust you for anything, like "You character passes out."

"Huh? Why?"

"He hasn't eaten in three days."

Proper military etiquette should be assumed in active role playing, IMO. Players should have to specifically state they are NOT following etiquette or be informed in specific circumstances that they need to play out the full details of the scene.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:27 pm: Edit

L.K.:

How `bout...Each GM makes his own list. And uses the CL fiction and ST:TOS episodes as a basic guide.
No one knows for sure if the cadet training on Rigel is the same as Vulcan. Different captains will place different expectations on their crew (I know if I were a captain; I'ld place a heck of a lot more emphasis on my underlings saying clearly "Aye Sir" than on whether or not they saluted).
Different regenal commanders will place different expectations on the crew. And quite probably different time periods shall place different expectation upon the crew.

Basically if a GM wants to go into minutia, it should be his responcibility to build the minutia (whether the upper decks use a slightly lighter shade of grey paint to indicate the upper decks is the sort of thing the GM figures out for himself so the salute thing probably should be left for the GM to do)...although I'm sure SVC won't stand in the way of anyone putting it on the net or publishing the list in a CL if it doesn't need too much additional work.


There's also the possibility that there is no proper list of times to salute in Star Fleet but rather a general rate. If you salute too little in a month then eventually you'll get called on it and asked what's going on. And if a superior officer salutes you, then you'ld better salute back but beyond that; your deeds prove your loyalty and not your salutations.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 01:00 am: Edit

MJC: I can tell you that while this guy was the metting host as well as the GM his jerk-atude eventually desolved the group. He was inteligent and creative but eventually it wasn't fun to be looked down on.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 03:15 am: Edit

Yeah.
There's no such thing as too smart.
There IS such a thing as thinking you're smarter than you are.

I mean a GM who makes players faint from not eating for three days, should also tell the players; "Hey, your tummy's rumbling!", after the first 24 hours and "It suddenly occours to you that you...are really really hungry" after 48 hours and probably let the PC be dizzy and tired for a couple of hours before fainting.
Fainting from hunger (unlike a fright or standing in the sun too long) doesn't sneak up on people...even standing in the sun too long is something you know you might faint from before you actually do faint.

Forgetting to throw the players a bone about keeping them honest is a great way to have players walk out on the group.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 09:39 am: Edit

I've run into bad GMs like that, too. My group's response was a little different, though -- we quit telling them we were getting together to play.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 10:42 pm: Edit

You know, a long time ago I sent an article to SVC on ways the GM can balance the information flow to the characters between spoon-feeding and letting them guess. Wonder if he's going to use that.


Garth L. Getgen

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Hi!

I was wondering if the background part of the Federation sourcebook has been locked in yet or not.

I was wondering if there is a section looking at the Aurora star system (at least at the era prior to Y130) - and if not, could an Auroran article be added?

The way I see it, the FRA is a way to:

*Place Federation characters and vessls in a new environment (with problems and circumstances quite distinct from those faced in the Federation they left behind),

*Give a taste of what is to come with a possible future Omega book,

*Cross-reference with the Klingon sourcebook (by looking at Kraknora),

*Include the Orions (with the Throne of Ozymondas), the Lyrans (with their arrival via the Nexus) and the ISC (with PX123)

and

Include a whole new setting which needs relatively little in the way of new material (just a small piece on the FRA government, differences in fleet structure and uniform etc - well, for scenarios exclusively set on or around Aurora III or one of the other member worlds...)


Could this be possible? Or if not, perhaps an FRA conversion kit as an article for a future Captain's Log?


Gary

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 06:35 pm: Edit

Possible, yes. Doable, probably. When and where to print it is the question.

The FRA is in Omega, so it would probably be most appropriate to print it in an eventual PD OMEGA book. But I could see it in the PD section of CL.

Let me think about it, and give me a nudge in a month or so if I stay quiet (I need to talk to a few people in the meanwhile).



Good idea!

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 06:37 pm: Edit

SVC, any immediate thoughts on Carney's idea above?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 10:20 am: Edit

The last 17 times that idea came up I said it should be in an Omega book so we could hook "mainstream" fans into buying the Omega book.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 05:48 pm: Edit

Another question:

What ship deck plans will be in PD Federation?


Gary