Mantor will always be Mantor, but perhaps given that the Kzintis have fewer enemies the Feds never managed to push their borders as far as they wanted?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 06:42 pm: Edit

Well, perhaps the Klingons didn't save the day, and the Kzinti were stronger. Hmmm. Maybe the Klingons did save the day...for the Kzinti, then established a very strong trade agreement, effectivly annexing it but then still letting the Kzinti think it is theirs.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 06:57 pm: Edit

You know, what about bigger neutral, disputed space between the empires with more independant planets

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 08:45 pm: Edit

Darwin would prob be better off covered int he ANdro Invasion book anyways

By David Kass (Dkass) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 08:48 pm: Edit

Here is a thought on the Romulans. They establish themselves early in a split with the Vulcans (as is historical), not because the Vulcans are pacifistic but because the Romulans are Xenophobic (actual Romulans seem to have such tendencies).

During the Y120 to Y150 period while they are still sublight, they are eliminated (primarily) by the Seltorians (without Klingon pressure and the exteme defensive metality of Tholians, they have the resources to go on the offensive).

Romulan space is split between the Paravians and Romulans, with the Eastern marches unexplored (historically, the Roms don't get around to it until Y170 or so). Or those could be part of a strong early ISC (the echelon is one of the few formations that can match Seltorian willingness to take casualties).

The remenants of the Romulans flee back to the Vulcans, taking the prototype of the cloak. The latter ends up in the hands of their Gorn "protectorate," but they only produce cloaks for some ships (25%?), not all...

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 11:16 pm: Edit

The problem I have with the Paravians replacing the Romulans is that the Paravians were coreward of the Gorns, and the Roms are rimward. That is the other direction. How did they get around the Gorns?

More likely the Paras expanded into ISC space than Romulan.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 11:35 pm: Edit

This was under the "weak Gorn" idea where they're more of a protectorate of the VSE. As such, the Paravians occupy the Eastern part of the Gorn Confederation (their capital would be at the Gorn's Eastern extent). Having pushed the Gorns as far as they can (hard for a "raiding" race to push on the capital), they just continue southward into Romulan space since the Romulans don't provide much resistance.

I was thinking of the Seltorians as having most of the Romulan space (probably including the ex capitals). Say a 70/30 split of the explored space (perhaps closer to a 50/50 split including the Eastern Marches Paravian space). This is a Seltorian empire that is a real player in the Galaxy (say the level of the current Kzinti).

If the ISC is strong (instead of the fractious idea suggested earlier), they'd get that part of Rom space instead of the Paravians...

If the Gorns are strong, obviously they would end up with the rest of Romulan space (but the Seltorians still get the lion's share).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Beat me to it David.

By Randy Buttram (Peregrine) on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 11:30 am: Edit

How about a bit of a twist?

The Paravians fare better against the Gorns, and are thus not eliminated when the Sun Snake takes out their home system. A weakened Gorn Confederation cannot hold the rimward areas against the Romulans, and is unable to dedicate extensive resources to preventing the Romulans from acquiring tactical warp.

The Romulans, fractious as they are, don't universally deploy tactical warp; the coreward Great Houses keep it as a monopoly and begin making noises about taking the throne.

At about this time, the Klingon expedition sent to conquer the Romulans, rather than being wiped out by the arriving Tholians, continues on its mission. However, the rimward Great Houses welcome the Klingon force, and the Klingon commander sees an opportunity. The Klingon force battles the tactical warp-equipped coreward Romulans to a standstill on behalf of the rimward Great Houses. The Klingon commander then declares himself the Emperor of a Klingo-Romulan empire, with the rimward Romulans as the lesser of equals. The coreward Romulans form a Romulan Republic. As time passes, the KR Empire builds - you guessed it, KR ships. And the Republic builds the Hawk-class ships.

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 11:05 am: Edit

>>> Hydrans might spread out all over the Galixy, living in everyones gas giants. And all neutral. Hmm.

Should they be all neutral, or should they be vassals in service to the other powers? Sort of a Feudal situation, where they get planets in exchange for military service.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 11:32 am: Edit

Should they be all neutral, or should they be vassals in service to the other powers? Sort of a Feudal situation, where they get planets in exchange for military service.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Then you would have mixed fleets. And intrigue!

Say two opposing fleets are about to do battle. Each side has Hydrans in it. What do the Hydrans do?

One: Once the first offencive shot is fired they all turn and disengage. Might make sense but that would suck game wise.

Two: They fight full on but they never fire on each other. If only Hydrans are left in the battle, start with a draw and adjust by victory points. (This is my favorite option)

Three: Hydrans from verious feifdoms hate each other and fight as enemys. (This would be easy game wise but lacks depth and character)

And how about: Hydrans are never alone on missions except for their own goals.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 12:43 pm: Edit

For #2 above: Hydrans never made up more than a third of any fleet except in the case of a single escort (one of two ships so 50% in this case). The Hydran ship was never the largest ship in any fleet. Hydran DN and CVAs were never hired out and were only used to protect the Home Worlds. On occasion a DN might be found at a large colony but this was usually frown upon by the races that owned the space where the colony resided. A couple of instances were recorded where a Hydran DN escorted a large convoy from Hydran space to the VSE(Feds) to establish new colonys along to Romulan border. One then continued on to establish relations with the Romulans. It was crippled by the Paravians, but made it back to Romulus where enough repairs were made to return to the colonys in the VSE (Feds). The Captain contacted VSE command and vowed to aid against the Paravians. That DN remained on the VSE/Romulan boarder for the remainder of it's service life.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 01:55 pm: Edit

As it happens, I really like the idea of humanoid civilizations coexisting with cryogenic civilizations within the same star systems, but neither having much to do with the other. There is a note in the Timeline that the Klingons and Hydrans shared a few systems for a brief time, but that it didn't work out. I'd like to know why! (SVC? SPP? Comments?)

Maybe we could create a new race or three that lives on the same class-A and -B worlds/moons that the Hydrans occupy, and have them in conflict between themselves but NOT with the humanoid races? THAT would be fun! They might even be appropriate for inclusion in mainstream SFB.

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 09:54 pm: Edit

Why not have the Kzinti and the Lyran inseparable, the best of friends. With strong mutual defense pacts. Effectively an invisible border, where Kzinti and Lyran move back and forth without hindrance. They could be the antagonists for the Vulcan Empire; the logical Vulcan would find a completely unpredictable emotional feline race distasteful. They could be a hot spot for wars as the Vulcan try to tame the felines, and Kilngons sell materials and information to both sides

In a crossover campaign, it would certainly put a GPD Lyran or Kzinti character to the test, to try to hide their natural racial intolerance, in a society where it was completely unacceptable.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 10:06 pm: Edit

Jim: I think all of that is covered in the post I made a few days ago.

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 10:41 pm: Edit

SVC sorry; I missed that first time through the archives.

By Daniel Smith (Danielsmith) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 12:23 am: Edit

The Klingons

The Klingons should still be an empire, just with a different twist. They should be based more on the British with colonies being started purely for economic benefits and not for strategic reasons. For the most part, the empire is based solely in the home system with ‘companies' running the colonies.

Of course, the ‘companies' have to pay hefty taxes to the empire in order to support the empires militaries in order to protect the empire as a whole. This does not mean that the ‘companies' are left defenseless, they would have to support their own marine/fleet forces but these should be limited to lesser ships such as D6's instead of D7's and no variants except for troop transports.

This corporate expansion mentality has resulted in a territorially aggressive nation but not necessarily with a military mentality. The initial meetings with the Hydrans initiated talks of co-habitating systems. Of course, the Klingons would have come out the better in this deal with their ‘company' colonization policy. This agreement created what was known as the Hydran- Klingon Cooperation Zone.

The Klingons also seized a portion of Kzinti space during the collapse of the Hegemony to the Carnivon advances. The Klingons look at it in the terms that the Kzinti are being protected in exchange of their service to the Empire. However, the Kzinti, like any good cats, do not like to be leashed and have been fighting a guerilla war shake off the Klingons. This has become a bleeding ulcer to the empire.

It should be noted that these colonizing corporations are not the megacorps of modern Sci-Fi, but more along the lines of the British East India Company. The company just goes in for trading rights and eventually takes over, using the current rulers as puppets backed by a private company army.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 01:45 am: Edit

Hydrans offer access to what would be untapped resources. The co-operation zone was obvious and required only a cursory amount of paper work.

Daniel: Not bad.

By Steven E. Ehrbar (See) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 02:34 am: Edit

Instead of fleeing rebels, make the Romulans forced exiles. When the Vulcan Federation contacts the Romulan Commonwealth, the Vulcans are embarassed at their ancestors' actions, and the Romulans have long since let bygones be bygones. A VU-RC alliance is formed to resist the Seltorians, Paravians, and Veltressai Empire.

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 08:59 am: Edit

Have the Tholians end up in a different spot along the galactic rim. Instead of replacing their PCs with disruptors, they end up using plasma torps or fusion beams/hellbores.

Loren - I like #2 as well. You could modify it a bit, by having them willing to fight to "first blood" (first internals) against each other. Or maybe only use NVC against each other.

By Daniel Smith (Danielsmith) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 09:32 am: Edit

How about the Orion Enclave. Maybe it should be an independent state that is surrounded (expansion locked) by the Vulcan Star Alliance (or whatever the Federation is to be called). The Orions must use clandestine help from other races (Klingon & Romulan Empires) in order to stave off the Vulcans attempts to bring the enclave into the alliance.

This would mean that the pirates never came from a mutinous Orion national fleet. Maybe humans could have taken over all the lesser pirates and formed the megacartels without a massive mutiny in the Earth Fleet.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 10:20 am: Edit

SEE: One of many ideas for the Rommies.

JK: Tholians ain't coming. Seltorians.

DS: One of many ideas for the Orions.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 10:53 am: Edit

I proposed some kind of Mirror,Mirror module a few years back...I'm ecstatic to see something finnally come to light!

I rather like the KR empire idea.

So far it seems we have;
Vulcan Star Empire (very cool..maybe a lot of plasma/photon hybrid vessels?)
Klingon Commonwealth?
KR Empire
Romulan Republic
Gorn Enclave
Paravian Pirates?
ISC?
Kzin/Lyran Alliance
Carnivon major race...where the wyn used to be but 5x that size, no radiation zone?
Hydran Merchants. So we'd see these guys everwhere? What if the Hydrans became the 'ISC' of this universe? IE: stepped in as merchants, arbitrators, and finally the UN if armed conflict was inevitable? Would give them something to do with hellbores and fighters at least.

And finally, I will lament the inabilty to use "Empire Earth" from the tv series, but at the very least the product should still be titled "Mirror, Mirror".

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 10:53 am: Edit

What is this 'Mantor' and 'Darwin' some of you have mentioned? Besides the obvious of course.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 11:00 am: Edit

Mantor is a planet in fed space near the Kzintis. It was the flashpoint for the 2nd Fed-Kzinti war.

Darwin is a survey ship. It was able to come back in time a decade or two with the key data on how to defeat the andros. On the original darwin timeline, the galaxy was conquered by the Andros.

No, it won't be titled mirror mirror unless you're willing to pay the lawsuit damages from Paramount getting upset. Figure about ten million US dollars.