I like Geoff's idea of the Carnivons getting to the WYN Cluster first!

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 11:45 am: Edit

Too bad that the map doesn't support it.

By Randy Buttram (Peregrine) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 01:01 pm: Edit

How about the Hydrans and the Jindarians as strong rivals, given that both groups would be scattered across the region?

And, as for a title, how about something that is (I believe) in the public domain?

"Through the Looking Glass".

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 01:40 pm: Edit

(not a new idea - just thinking out loud on some other ones proposed...)
The Hydrans co-exist with other races (using previously unusable gas giants) across the galaxy. They Lease/Buy suitable gas giants from various races (or agree to mining deals that let them use the planet in return for % of the take). Along the way, they also setup clandestine settlements on other gas giants.

Sometime in Y18x, the Hydrans emerge from their gas giants and begin the conquest of the Alpha Quadrant

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 01:45 pm: Edit

I like it....

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 02:04 pm: Edit

I like it all except for two points....

about 90% of hydran population is in "their" territory; the other leased planets are just trading posts.

I don't like the conquer the quadrant part at all.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 02:24 pm: Edit

The conquer the quadrant part was just my 3 legged evil trashcan twin speaking

By Jonathan Lang (Dataweaver) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 07:59 pm: Edit

Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly: the intent here is to create a single alternate universe for SFU, the conceptual equivelent of the Mirror Universe from TOS, but different for copyright purposes. Said universe is to be introduced and featured in a single Prime Directive Adventure, with the slight possibility of followup adventures if the first one proves to be popular.

If I'm right about the above, then the adventure is either going to have to be very wide-ranging, or it's going to have to deal with some massive get-together of the major powers of said alternate universe, or the vast majority of said universe will never come to light. Furthermore, the intent of said Alternate Universe should be kept in mind: is it merely a "gee whiz" thing? Hopefully not; if something of this sort is done, it ought to have some sort of import.

The original Mirror Universe was a way of looking at the dark sides of the main casts' personalities; everything else was geared around that. If we do a Looking Glass Universe with a similar intent, then the various cultures should be the same overall as in SFU Proper in theory, but with some reversals that have occurred in practice. The Vulcan Empire and the Orion Enclave works nicely in this perspective, as the Vulcans and Orions are still very nearly the same Vulcans and Orions as SFU Proper, attitude-wise, but the Vulcans have turned into tyrants while the Orions have turned into freedom fighters. In this perspective, the Romulans might work better as a Romulan Republic, bitter enemies of the Vulcan Empire; the Gorns could be a former subject race of the Vulcans who have recently regained their independence. In general, you probably want to start defining the various races by how they relate to the Vulcan Empire where possible (assuming that the adventure in question is geared around a Federation crew).

You should also consider potential reprecussions of the crossing: was the link between universes a one-time unique event, or will it happen again? Even if it's a unique event, there's the possibility for long-term consequences if someone from the other side is brought back with the crew - especially if said individual is unusually well-informed of the politics of his world.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 08:44 pm: Edit

No, it would be used as an alternative universe for play in many adventures and also be and alternative back ground for SFB. There might could be F&E rules. It is a single alternative Star Fleet Universe. No new ships and no new weapons. Just a write up in a module. Back ground for the races, historical time line, posibly a few rule modification instances, a map, and scenarios for each of the games covered.

That's how I understood it, anyway.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 08:50 pm: Edit

Idea: Molecules from one universe start to break down in the other (life could last up to a couple of weeks or longer with medical aid). Polaritys are reversed so electronics are incompatable. Energy weapons used cross universe have reduced effects.

The galixy spins in the opposite direction and the map is reversed(?).

No...the ships still move forward!

By Richard Brown (Richardb) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 09:59 pm: Edit

Even one published adventure in the Alternate Universe will have to cover lots of background if it's to be usefull for everyone. Lets face it GPD players may play as anyone from the Hydrans to the ISC, and in any timeframe from the Early Years to the X ship era. A published adventure needs enough information to alow the GM to adapt the published material to suit his own game. In the main SFU a lot of that information is in the universe background, but an Alternate SFU adventure you have a whole seperate background to wory about. If you have to go to that much trouble to write one adventure you might as well do a whole sourcebook for the alternate reality with info for GPD SFB and F&E so future modules that involve it can all refrence one volume.

On the subject of more ideas for the alternate universe, here are two more.
The Alternae Organians are evil. They see the lesser races as playthings and pit them against each other for there amusement (militarily, economicaly, socialy ect.)
Title "Broken Mirror."

By Greg Ernest (Grege) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 10:49 pm: Edit

So, rather than attempting to stop wars or disappearing before the General Wars, these alternate organians are actually trying to get everyone up to a level playing field and then encouraging the GW to start???

I kinda like that... (in a demented and twisted way)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 11:21 pm: Edit

Jonathan: Your perception is trapped by a fatal error. Nobody said anything about adventures, only about creating a universe.

The marketing gurus can tell you that "adventures do NOT sell" but that universes do.

No doubt, such a universe module (two or three years into GPD) would include a couple of sample adventures and ideas for adventures, but 99% of the adventures are created by the GMs.

So, any idea that the adventure must be galaxy-wide is just wrong. It could be as simple as "go into the other universe where everything is cockeyed and bring back Isaac Borenstein, who was a famous scientist killed in a laboratory accident over here but is a political prisoner sentenced to death over there" just to get you into the spirit of the thing. Then you can do your own adventures in the "other playground".

By David Leppink (Leppink) on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:35 am: Edit

With a weakened ISC would the Soldra make an invasion attempt in Alpha?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 10:42 am: Edit

It was noted above "Lets keep Omega out of this." by SVC I think.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 09:10 am: Edit

No Mirror, Mirror title. Poo.

Mirror Universe then.

I like Geoff's idea of the Carnivons getting to the WYN Cluster first!

By Steve Cole ;
Too bad that the map doesn't support it.

Eh? The map can do whatever we want it to do in a new universe.

The idea was to place the Carnivons smackdab in the middle of Feds, Klingons, Kzin, and Lyrans. This could even help manufacture the Kzin/Lyran alliance as they Kzin send ships to the Lyran front to help stem the tide of 'anti-feline aggression' by the Klingon Commonwealth.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 10:16 am: Edit

Geoff: Wrong. People are where they are. Borders move, home planets do not. The carnivons are NOT anywhere close to "smackdab in the middle of Feds, Klingons, Kzin, and Lyrans" and even in the Looking Glass Universe cannot be moved there.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 01:13 pm: Edit

Trying to add some input of my own.

What I suggest is that the VSE has its "circle" moved "east" about six F&E hexes. This gives several nice results.
- The western races have more room to maneuver.
- The Orions are now close to the Klingon/VSE border instead of in the middle of the VSE.
- The Gorn worlds are right on the new border, so it can more easily be a semi-independent protectorate.
- The Romulan worlds are right on the new border, too.

My suggestion for the Romulans is to have them pretty much wiped out by the VSE. Their western territory is now in the VSE, and their eastern territory is still unexplored. (Most likely taken over by the various squabbling ISC states.)

The core still remains, as they successfully captured warp technology in the long war and have managed to maintain a semblance of independence. Using this as a base, they fill the Orion roll from the original universe and become the Romulan Pirates.

The Orions become a regional power (like the LDR) and constantly struggle with the VSE. They are not crushed, as they receive significant help from the Klingons, whom they now border.

Also, it is possible to move the VSE territory "up" a couple of hexes to give the Seltorians room to breed and expand. I figure everyone hates them and has to keep killing lots of them to keep them from expanding.

(With either or both changes, the Paravians still have large amounts of space available. They get the eastern side of the Gorns, and possibly some of the ISC territory.)

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 01:24 pm: Edit

One alternative reality that I came up with(in order to increase the use of the simulator races by our group) was the Jigsaw reality. Basically the Masters and Organians get together and decide to play a Cosmic Practical Joke on the "lesser races". What they do is turn all the simulator races into real ones and insert them in various places in the Alpha Empire. These included new simulator races designed by those that didn't have one in C4.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Another thought on the VSE, while they may allow the “lesser” races to operate the various freighter types, and maybe early years FF/DDs, to serve on fleet units one must have undergone Vulcan training in discipline and other matters ALA Janisaries of the old Ottoman empire.

ADM

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 12:05 am: Edit

I've been thinking about what kind of product this would be. Here is my idea. Not being a game publisher I don't know if it would really work but I'm pretty sure I'd buy it.

Module LGU: The Looking Glass Universe.

First it opens with a piece of fiction. Then an outline of the history and maps. Followed by SFB special rules and GPD stuff. If any counters were to be supplied I think they should be extra counters for the Paladine, Canivons, Paravians (and setorians if needed). Finally, there could be notes on creating your own alternate universe and a blank Empire map. No new ships(ssd's) or systems/weapons. All in one book. Perhaps use the Captains Log format?


A couple of additional notes: I like Mike Wests idea about sliding the VSE over six hexs putting Orion on the Klingon Border and making them an enclave. Four hexs might be enough but I'm not sure. It also goes well with my idea for Mantor above (Sept. 20 6:42PM). Mantor could still have a three way arangement but with the Klingons, Kzinti, and Orions.

Lastly, the F&E information could be published in a Captains Log if the player community shows interest.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 06:15 am: Edit

Odd, I'm quite certain there was no stipulation against moving capitols in the opening of this thread; "This would be a good place to discuss the type of manual defined by the title. "

But if that is now a guideline, there is no reason why an offshoot of the Carnivon race couldnt occupy the cluster (and use that as an impregnable base of ops against all neighbors), much like the Vulcan offshoot beget the Romulan Star Empire.

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Stray ideas for the Romulans, how about having them like the Japanese during the 1500 - 1600's. Waring houses, providing lots of adventure seeds. With a national seclusion policy. This would give a reason for the Romulans only having the old version of ships; the KR ships are never developed due to seclusion. When they develop the new ships they are completely overmatched by the Vulcan who pressure the Romulans to reunite with the Vulcan’s. The Romulans instead withdraw away from the other races, perhaps across the void to start conquering in the omega sector

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 11:30 pm: Edit

One more Romulan option: they are not expansionist and do not enter the galactic mainstream until they are foced to; this is a variation on Jim's Japanese idea above.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 12:39 am: Edit

The Romulans could be a Vulcan Secret sociaty. Infiltrating and doing all the dirty deeds the Vulcans can't do openly. However, the Romulans also have their own agenda. Their home planet is known but the real governing body is not. The Vulcans think they are the real Governing body but in fact they are not. Romulan influance spreds through out the Galaxy. Pirats? No, they are far more insidious and cool. Some day they will move and the entire Alpha sector will fall in one swoop.

Hey, just brainstorming here.