Just to keep the human independence alive, there could be a pocket empire of humans core ward of the Vulcans, who are striving for an independent Earth. However they would only have the old CL style "Earth" ships, maybe middle year ships. Fighting to remain independent from the Vulcans.

A ragtag fugitive colony searching for a way to free Earth.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:49 pm: Edit

At the end of the Sept. 30th archive I presented an idea for the Romulans. I could see the Humans drafting an agreement with the Secret secret Romulan government towards a means to creat a free Earth. Having to deal with Vulcan and Humans alike. i.e. some Humans will like the situation as it is since they are in favored positions. Others will hang on to the forgoten dreams of the Earths past.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 11:49 pm: Edit

Been reviewing this topic today. Stuff I'd like to see (some of this mentioned already, just giving my thumbs up), moving from west to east:

Lyran and Kzinti: Strong allies, forming a "western superpower"
Carnivons and Peladine: Survive as northwestern adversaries to the cats, creating a new second front.
Klingons: A democratic state with a stronger economy, maintaining a smaller operational fleet in peace time, but a sleeping giant in wartime (sort of like the "real" Feds politically and economically during the General War). I'd still like them to maintain a marshal heritage.
WYN: A strong Klingon ally with a distinct hatred toward the Kzinti & Lyrans. Build the Fish ships much earlier with Klingon assistance and wage a long low intensity war against their hated enemies.
Hydrans: A race of capitalistic merchants loosely dominated by two guilds (who fought civil wars to achieve dominant positions in the EY period). One Guild uses fusion heavy ships (Ranger, Lord Marshall, Lancer, etc), the other uses the HB heavy ships (Dragoon, Lord Bishop, Knight,etc.) Fight a series of minor wars (with indirect feline and Klingon support to opposing sides), but ultimately form an alliance to seize vast amounts of territory to protect their precious space lanes (sort of like the ISC pasification).
Vudar: A semi-independant race within Klingon territory. Declare nuetrality in a war (sort of like the Orions in the General War)
LDR: Attempt to break away, but are quickly crushed. Never achieve the independant status they enjoy in the "real" universe. Gatling ships never appear.
Vulcan Star Empire: Dominate Federation space with Orions acting as a resistance group. This has been pretty well covered.
Romulans: I like the idea of a split race. Civil War occurs much earlier. KRs form a republic with strong ties to the Klingons (southern half of Romulan space). Hawks, an empire with ties to the Vulcans.
Seltorians: Already covered.
Gorns: I like the idea of three seperate groups divided along racial lines (Greens, Greys, etc). Paravians form a fourth element. Fight minor wars against each other, but eventually form a loose alliance to liberate one of the individual Gorn races from Vulcan subjegation.
ISC: Divided up as as seperate races. ISC never forms, region is in a constant state of warfare and is eventuall conquered by somebody (a long bloody process).

Just some ideas. I would definately like to see a less stable geography (but maybe not as volitile as Omega). I think this whole thing is pretty cool.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 12:06 am: Edit

Richard B.

The problem with guideline's for altering ship SSD's fall within the verbotten zone of ship modification's.

The CL Brothers of the Anarchist articles should be good enough for most any real neeed to modify ship's mildly.

SVC Say's: Don't go there

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 12:39 am: Edit

Even if an asteroid's armor was thick enough to permit Jindarians to sucessfully take them into the Wyn Cluster, anyone else entering the Cluster would be able to identify them instantly.

Can you say "Glow in the dark"?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 01:14 am: Edit

Reguarding Klingon Labs: It could be said that they are very high quality labs but are fragil thus still represented by the same number of boxs.

Jeremy: That "Somebody" that conquers the ISC worlds could be the Andromadins...no?

Wyn cluster: could be the Swiss of the LGU.

Jeremy again: Your refinement of the Romulans is a good one. I agree compleatly. Lots of room for espionage adventures!

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 01:49 am: Edit

Andros? Sure. They could even skip the LMC altogether and establish their forward base in conquered ISC space instead. Maybe the Andros become a new "Eastern Superpower" in ISC space around Y190 and force a great conflagration.

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 08:31 am: Edit

RE: "Glow in the dark"

Lots of rocks that just naturally moved through the radiation zone would be similarly glowing.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 10:34 am: Edit

problem with the klingons as an economic superpower.

the F&E map just doesn't give them that much income. you can say their economy is more robust so they don't get exhausted as quickly, but their economy is still going to be smaller unless you re-draw the map somehow.

also in a major war the klingons can't afford to loose territory while they build up their fleet, they just don't have enough of it to survive that.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 12:07 pm: Edit

Eco Klingons. I don't think there is really a problem for several reasons:
1) They bolster the economy with more trade. They are more business savy.

2) One suggestion (above) was to shift the VSE(Feds) east six hexs. This would give the Klingons at least some new resources.

3) What seems to be the current plan for the Hydrans is that they are spread through out the Galixy and not a direct enemy of the Klingons (or any one). This has two effects. One, it doesn't drain the Klingons of cash due to the lack of several costly wars and the Hydrans settle the Klingon gas giants thus unlocking an aditional resource.

I would suggest a wider neutral zone between the VSE and the Klingons. This could lead to a series of trade wars and territorial disputes. Gotta have action! Say double wide or three with a floating or interlaced border.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 12:40 pm: Edit

My impression was we could redraw the borders on the F&E map, just not change the locations of the homeworlds. So maybe the Klingons hold more of Hydran and Federation space and the Vulcan Empire is moved farther east, reducing the the size of the eastern races' territory.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 12:48 pm: Edit

It was stated above that all the Worlds will remain where thay are. No official word on whether or not the borders would be changed but my 'New Map+Blank Map' idea got a "Sounds Plausable".

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 08:19 pm: Edit

With the VSE moved farther east, I would say a great conflict would erupt between them and the InterStellarConquest. And yes I'm absolutely serious. This new universe could use a major war or two.

yes you could create an alternate reality where the klingons need lots more labs and lots fewer transporters, but you can create a perfectly good one wihtout having to throw out and reprint hundreds of SSDs

No one is suggesting that. But a simple 'replace X tran on Klingon ships with X cargo' or the like would be a good start. Simply put, if the races in this universe developed so differently than their SFU counterparts then so would their ship design.

I would think an article on what ships were not designed in this Universe and what were would at the very least be required. Would every race develop fast cruisers without a general war? PFs? Fighters? War cruisers? etc etc.

By Jonathan Lang (Dataweaver) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 08:31 pm: Edit

Overall, I like Jeremy's ideas, although a combined Lyran/Kzinti alliance would make up for the lack of Hydran beligerence in terms of economic problems for the Klingon Commonwealth (then again, the Carnivons and Peladine would help take some pressure off of the Klingons).

I especially like the idea of saying that the genocidal war between the Gorns and the Paravians never happened, and that the three Gorn species didn't get along quite as well in the LGU as they did in SFU Proper.

The arrival of the Seltorians would be a potential death-knell for the Romulan Republic, cutting it off from Klingon support; the Republic's only chance of survival would be to get support from the Gorn Alliance. Then again, that depends largely on where the Seltorians arrive. With the VSE shifted eastward, there's a possibility that, even if the Seltorians arrived where the Tholians did historically, the Klingon Commonwealth and Romulan Republic might have maintained contact. Drop the Tholians into the Romulan Republic, and have the Romulans cede them a system on the condition that they wipe out the Seltorians.

As the Andromedan Invasion approaches (and everyone seems to be assuming that it happened in the LGU more or less unchanged), you could have a sector of the VSE on the Klingon border break free a la the LDR of SFU Proper, mainly using CLs and Police Corvettes (if done as a minor race that didn't last long or have much impact, you might be able to get away with letting them develop ships similar to those found in the Omega Sector's FRA - yes, I know that SVC said "no Omega stuff", and I'm not 100% confident in this idea since I haven't seen the actual FRA SSDs; but I think that the FRA and the Paravians would be just about the _only_ Omega material which would have _any_ chance of viably making it into the LGU setting).

If the Hydrans and the Klingons are allowed to interpenetrate, that would have the potential of opening up the Hydran Old Colonies as an "off-map exploration area" for the Klingons - though this would depend on the good will of the Hydrans.

Also note that - just like some conjectural ships would be historic in the LGU, some historic ships would likewise be conjectural - including the entire ISC fleet, but also possibly including Klingon penal designs, etc. New SSDs would include GW-era Carnivon, Peladine, Paravian, and proto-ISC ships, and possibly reprints of some FRA designs if the idea proves popular enough; none of the major races would have or need new SSDs.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 08:55 pm: Edit

Re Klingon economy. Also, if the Hydrans are using Gas giants all over the sector, the Klingons (the first step in such a process) would probably have demanded equivalent rights to Hydran space. Thus much of the F&E Hydran economy would be Klingon (each sector is producing twice as much income, once for the Klingons and once for the Hydrans). I realize Hydran space isn't huge, but it does add another 10 or so sectors and a couple more planets (I'm not counting the captial).

Even if the Klingon empire is now externally economically oriented, that doesn't mean they can't still be using subject races as ship crews. As such, they'd still have security stations.

The Klingon Diplomatic ships would probably become more common.

As far as ships go, I can see a few new special purpose ships and changing some from conjectural to real and vice versa (Klingon penal ships are one possiblity for the latter), but I really don't like the idea of changing the boxes on SSDs. My experience with that "era" was that someone always forgot what change had been made and then the game degenerated as people got upset over tactics not working.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 09:36 pm: Edit

David Kass: I was just about to say that.

I would think that the Hydrans should have their own sovern teritory that they share via treaty with the Klingons just as the Klingons share with the Hydrans. I would also add that now sharing of systems goes on in the Homeworld magahex. So, each system produces double EPs but each race taxs the others EPs. So Hydrans get 2/3 of the extra EPs in Klingon Systems and vice versa.

I also agree that Klingon Diplomatic ships would be more common. Probably one in each shared system plus the Galactic Affares missions.

If we change SSDs I just know it will be a mess! IMHO.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 02:07 am: Edit

Guys, get over the 'change ssd boxes thing'. I was talking about an article that would simply outline some ideas for taking the alternate universe ideas to the extreme, because frankly Klingon battlecruisers as is wouldn't exist in a mercantile 'commonwealth'.

As to the ISC, I always thought their fleets were poorly used in 'peacekeeping'. I would much rather see the InterStellarConquest than a bunch of broken lesser kingdoms as we seem to have already done to the Roms and Gorns. Would be nice to have one major plasma power at least people.

As well, I don't think we have given much thought to the Andros yet. What about the Andromedan Liberation? ie: The andros descend simultaneouslly on each capitol via the RTN and 'make an offer you can't refuse' to liberate the galaxy from inefficient decentralized governing and institute their abilities to keep the peace. The andros set up sat bases between all belligerent races and patrol the imposed neutral zones.

Or what if the Andros come in greater force than in the SFU, and plop a Desecrator on every capitol??? Geurilla scenarios would be the name of the day until a capitol assault on their own capitol could be conducted!


Ultimately, we need not limit ourselves to ONE representation of an alternate universe, or at the very least several good ideas can form a support article for further ideas.

By Jonathan Lang (Dataweaver) on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 03:00 am: Edit

The plan, however, _is_ to limit ourselves to one official representation of an alternate universe, in order to avoid diluting the concept.

I like Jeremy's take on the ISC; it does a nice inversion of the idea that the starfaring races of that region befriended each other early on. OTOH, it doesn't allow for the ISC ships to appear in the LGU at all, which I'm sure many will find annoying. What kind of history could we come up with for the ISC's region which would be in some way an inversion of the SFU Proper ISC, but would still allow for ships which the ISC Proper required years of R&D in relative peace and security to develop?

I've no problem with a few LGU modifications to standard SSDs, as long as they're kept to a minimum and given proper explanation (for instance, I could see the - still martial, but more mercantile - Klingon Commonwealth treating its subject races well enough that mutinies aren't an issue, justifying the replacement of Security Stations with other types of control stations, and I could see the VSE treating its non-Vulcan member races severely enough that _their_ ships would require security stations. Or not. It wouldn't bother me, nor would I insist on it.

The problem with the Andros is that we don't know enough about them to come up with a properly warped version of them.

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 03:15 am: Edit

Got bored. I drew up a map based on the message I posted yesterday. Please ignore the bases. These are the bases from the normal F&E map and would need to be changed. This is just a quick and dirty.

http://jgray-sfb.com/lookingglass.gif

Most of this is self explanitory. The two seperate parts of Hydran space would be the two Guilds I mentioned before, got no ideas for names. I gave the WYN (who I suggested would build the fish ships earlier and would be more agressive toward the the other cats) some territory outside the cluster. The race in the northern corner of Klingon space is the Frax. Don't know what you all think of making them real in the alternate universe. Selts are in what was Tholian territory. The Gorns are divided, as are the ISC.

As far as ISC ships go, I think we could pick one of the ISC races, and allow them to develop the ISC technology and conquer some of the surrounding races in ISC space (but not all of them). The division of the Gorn and Romulan races would allow them to time they need, only to be decimated when the Andros eventually strike.

As for the whole Romulan/Vulcan thing. Think of the Vulcan and Romulan Empires as a SFB analogy to the Eastern and Western Roman Empires. In this case, it is the eastern empire that became weak, allowing a successfull civil war and the emergence of a republic in the south (with Klingon support).

Anyway, just some more food for thought.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 09:14 am: Edit

if the Gorn Pavarian war didn't go down as it historicly did then the Gorn would have no reason not to confine the romulans to their homeworlds, thus I wouldn't expect the romulans to be a significant factor (they would tie up gorn ship, but not much else)

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 11:19 am: Edit

Just a thought, but instead of modifiying SSDs perhaps the race using them could be changed. Say that the VSE uses Klingon ships, maybe the KR types. The Klingons use a few Fed ships with photons replaced with disruptors, with most of their fleet being WYN Aux Cruisers.

ADM

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 11:32 am: Edit

I like it when you get bored, Jeremy. Nice map!

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 01:04 pm: Edit

Jeremy, Awesome map! Can you drop me an e-mail, I'd like to know how you did it so that I can do the same with my Jigsaw Universe. yellowdm89060@yahoo.com

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 01:39 pm: Edit

Earlier is was sugested, I think by SVC, that the Paravians had conquered more teritory. IIRC, a chunk of Gorn space and a good deal of the Eastern side of Romulan space. Of course we are all brainstorming, but I thought I would just bring that up for reconsideration.

The map is cool Jeremy! Gives a good center to work from. You have some good ideas there.

Wyn: It could be a make up of the same Kzinti but for different reasons. The exterior teritory could be sympathetic to the Crown Prince and were ealily "liberated" by the Crown Prince.

Frax. Hmm. Not really excited by that one.

Small changes to SSDs: If we make small changes to SSDs there will be a BPV adjustment. This is where one of the can-o-worms opens.(this change equals this BPV so I can make it on this other ship, too) Maybe not but this has happened before. Can it be contained? Sure, but I think it is the desire of the Powers That Be that this not be a product that takes away from the main game. A history and rules are one thing but add new ships and that likely more than doubles the work for our already overworked heros. Then there is the extra playtesting, more printing costs (because a lot of players want formal SSDs. If it is a ship it needs a SSD. Look at some of the variants in SFB, only the smallest changes demanded a separate SSD.)

I would like to see the LGU actually happen. No new SSDs only means we have to be creative and figure out why the ships are the same. Perhaps the Klingons fearcely protect their wealth, having been poor before. Just give them more Tugs.

One last note: OTOH, if the player community really wants it bad enough ADB will probably give it to us. I really don't want to sound like I'm squelching anyones ideas. Hell, I'm not important enough here to do that even if I tried. Every one here has great ideas and I'm pretty excited about this product.

Geoff: OK, I'm over it.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica) on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Hmmm...I think I'd better get kicking on those J2 ships for the Peladine...from the look of it, they may be needed.