Archive through October 11, 2002
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Prime Directive RPG: NEW KINDS OF RPG PRODUCTS:
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Archive through October 11, 2002
David L, You forgot that the Lyrans also had hot warp well before the start of the General War. While the other races only got them about the time of the start of the war, the eastern ones did it well before they entered the war. Thus hot warp itself is not a wartime invention (at least for most races). Thus it would exist even if the General War never happened.
Before the introduction of Large Sat Ships (and Medium Sat Ships to a lesser extent), Andros can be defeated without having all the post-GW goodies (note that most races get their normal ship refits around the beginning of the GW).
Loren,
The theme of this module would be to present alternate(mirror) universe(s) where the standard races are largely 'opposites', or as I like to say "the same, but different'.
If we make the Feds into the strong and aggressive VSE, then likewise the Klingon Empire should become the defensive and economically minded KlingonCommonwealth. And as such, having them launch an offensive against arguably the strongest nation in the alpha sector(VSE) simply because the VSE is having local conflicts on the other side of its borders, is not logical. Did we see the Federation launch on offensive when the Hydran Kingdom was nearly extinguished by the Coalition? Nope.
Jonathon;
I tend to agree about potentially hamstringing the product by limiting it overly much; but we've been given some guidelines here (a single, consistent Alternate with few if any new ship designs)
And key in that is that they are guidelines. That does not necessarily exclude a paragraph or two in each racial entry offering alternative presentations and/or 'anarchy article' guidelines for ship alterations.
Note that ISC ships are overall rather advanced designs;
A good reason to keep them as a major player, and turn their 'peacekeeper' theme on its ear with an 'imperialist' theme instead.
I would hesitate to introduce them early on in the LGU, both because I'd have difficulty justifying the ISC's counterparts having that kind of technology
What technology? Check out the ISC r section on 'refits' that actually remove many systems in the earlier years from ISC ships, like plS, ph3s, and the rear f torps. PPD units are reasonably scarce in an early timeline as well. Simply put, this problem has already been dealt with.
The ISC should remain squabbling states and/or remain out of sight throughout much of the LGU's equivelent of the GW era.
I cannot agree. We have already splintered the Roms and Gorns, and introduced several minor states on a larger scale then seen in SFU prime. I see no reason to do the same with the ISC and in fact that would be an absolute shame to do to the last plasma power in SFU alternate.
I think the presumption of a GW era at all is another issue to discuss as well. With the numerous factions we have introduced I would say there is a lesser likelihood of having a general war. I would think that there would be more skirmishes and theatre wars but not a GW involving all races.
disengage cloak
The idea of the VSE vs. ISC does have some interesting parallels...
I can imagine that while the Western races are squabling amongst each other the VSE / ISC could be waging a type of cold war - - complete with buffer 'states' (Rom / Gorn) between the two... especially if those two races are splintered up.
re-engage cloak
Here's a snapshot at an Eastern Sphere SFU alternate timeline as I see it;
VSE expand logically in a spherical fashion, absorbing Sol and other racial home systems into their empire. However, in an effort to find the dangerous radical Vulcan splinter groups that left Vulcan in Y___, certain exploration efforts are focused to the east. (this helps explain the offcentre cant of the VSE)
Gorn Kingdoms come under assault by Paravian Raiders who are more advanced and territorial than the SFUprime versions. Constant warfare and their close proximity to each other dooms them both to economic exhaustion and a limited expansion of their space.
The Romulan Freehold takes root when the Vulcan idealogical rebels finally 'set up camp' at Romulus, vowing to uphold the ideals of liberty and a free peoples government. Their isolationist view retards warp engine development considerably.
The war among the far eastern tribes that would become the InterStellarConquest is quickly ended when one race (pick one) develops the plasma torpedo first and quickly subjugates all the others. An Imperial line is born and the Conquest expands looking for more subject races to add to their empire. (short note about possible anarchist conversions to ISC ships, like replacing flagbridge with security stations)
Klingon Kommonwealth deep space survey ship makes contact with the Romulan Freehold, opens trade negotiations in return for space, this includes the warp engine advance. Roms begin to expand...until rebels within the Freehold cause a bloody civil war to break out, splintering the Freehold into what would become the eastern Romulan Empire and the western Romulan Republic. This slows Rom expansion and creates an ongoing skirmish zone between the two. (note the reversal of Empire/Republic positions, so that the Empire in the east allies with the ISC and Republic in the west could ally with the Kommonwealth. Have the Empire use Hawk ships and the Republic use Kestrel ships.)
With no major empires between them, the VSE and ISC expand unchecked well past SFUprime borders towards each other (a power vaccum will be filled by another power, and this helps explain the VSE eastern 'sideslip'). These two major eastern powers begin to pick off isolated rom.gorn.paravian systems.
Seltorians arrive in SFUalternate and take possession of a single system under charter from the Kommonwealth, who cannot as yet fully exploit the 'eastern marches' and are willing to let the Selts do that for them, later taking them back under the Rules of Aquisition 877. 
These plans go horribly wrong when the Selts breeding rate and production rate go through the roof, establishing the Seltorian Holdfast and eventually cutting the Kommonwealth off from the Rom Rep,
Both the VSE and ISC make plans for invasion of the fractured gorn, paravian, rom eastern powers. But once the VSE and ISC make contact and realize there is another major power in the area, a major war erupts between the two with the intervening gorn, rom and paravian powers as the prize. These minor powers quickly ally with the VSE or ISC as their only means of salvation (Paravian with ISC, RomEmp with VSE, Gorns neutral?).
At this point nearly the entire eastern sphere is involved in a theatre war. Huge potential for fun with this.
Quote: "If we make the Feds into the strong and aggressive VSE, then likewise the Klingon Empire should become the defensive and economically minded KlingonCommonwealth."
Earlier SVC mentioned that stark opposites were not what he was interested in. Or something like that. I'm not attempting to paralel his comment. This is just to say that I don't agree that the Klingons need to be a Defencive Commonwealth. They are supposted to use the same ships and same basic inherent tactics so that implies to me that they are still agressive. But they are also agressive in maters of economics. Sure, I would say they are a bit more evenly tempered but still butt heads and drink Blood Wine to celebrate their victorys. So, while the VSE (Feds) are a little more insane, the Klingons are a little less insane but they are all still insane. 
ISC: Early ISC ships in limited numbers escaping the Andromidans would pose no threat the the rest of the Alpha Sector. And having the Andromadins attack the west of ISC space with their original equipement is not a problem either. First, the Andromadins didn't need their most advanced ships because, in my vision, the ISC fell with only minor dificulty. The fleeing ISC warns the rest of the Galaxy so the prepair by building Fast Cruisers and PFT and Carriers. Maybe even developing the SCS a bit earlier. But they don't have too much time and the initial wave of Andromidans sweeps into the Alpha Sector quickly.
I'm putting the invasion at about Y165 and the war last until Y176. (This is a quick gestiment).
Skirmishes and resetlement of ISC space over the next eight years to Y184. Over the next two years a General War developes and lasts until Y193 or so. That puts X-ship developement right at the start of the GW. Now, consider that!
Ohh, just got an idea. Earlier I posted that the GW was fought over the resetlement of the ISC space. The Klingons attack the VSE during their Fleet shift to the East. THe Cats attack the Klingons to retake seveal Annexed systems and for revenge of their support for the Wyn.
OK. The VSE push towards ISC space, nudging the Gorns a bit and taking a swath out of the Northern section of Romulan space and setting up several coloneys on the Western edge of ISC space. The Gorns are unhappy with the loss of a few systems and the Romulans make a major push to retake their space cutting off the Eastern VSE coloneys and their ship yards. The GW comes to a close.
Here is the good part. Cut of from the VSE the coloneys find them selves sudenly indepandent. There is a insurection by the Humans over their Vulcan commanders and all of the Vulcans are executed or imprisioned. With a few ship yards and a couple coloneys the Humans create a Fleet of ships (same class' of VSE designs but maybe add more "F" refits) in preparation for a "War of Return"! To liberate Earth and take their rightful place as leaders of the Earth Empire. They make their move in Y203. There is a huge human uprising and it looks like the Humans might succeed. The war of return pushes home only to discover crippling defeat at the hands of X2 tech. by Y210. The final blow is when the Romulans cancel the Right of Passage due to a treaty with the VSE. The Gorns will not negotiate. The Humans are eventually left in a defencive position between the Rebuilding ISC, the Romulans and the return of the Paravians.
Actually, I rather like Geoff's suggestions overall, although I'd tend to make relations between the Paravians and the Gorns a bit friendlier (I _really_ like the idea of the Paravians being absorbed into the Gorn Alliance instead of being wiped out or becoming a GW-era power, and it makes things more managable by removing the need for seperate Paravian ships, while still turning history on its head in a novel way), and I'd make the ISC internal developments occur differently (let the Q'Naabians be the ones to develop the first Plasmas, which they use to pull an "Organian Peace Treaty" stunt, establishing the Interstellar Coalition with themselves as neccessary "firsts among equals"). I'd rather see the VSE as the group that has to deal with mutinies rather than the ISC.
When I refer to GW era, I'm referring to a period of years and a set of technological assumptions, not neccessarily to a "every state is embroiled in a single war" concept.
I wasn't aware of "downgrade refits" for the ISC; with extensive use of such, and with the "standard" versions being limited production, unique, and/or conjectural designs, I've less of a problem with an early era ISC - especially with the VSE (and Romulans and Gorns) shifted eastward.
Loren: while I like the idea of a Human independence movement, I'd rather it be modelled on the LDR than on the WYN, and placed on the Klingon and/or Kzinti border rather than the Gorn/Romulan border. A Human "War of Return" just doesn't strike me as believable.
Maybe we should look at a slightly different model. The General War in SFB is based on the WWII model of a world war. Between the time Rome fell and the French and Indian War occurred, there really weren't any huge, all encompassing wars. One of the problems F&E has is that it is just too large to play out. If we have a "warring states" sort of situation, with no grand alliances, we might develop a more manageable situation for strategic gaming, while still having a wide enough variety of enemies for tactical play.
If we want to leave room for future development of the LGU we could put one or a couple of zones a few hexes wide. That is surrounded by energy absorption barriers. That no ship can penetrate. These bubbles could be left over from a war between the Old Kings/Gorn emplacement race/cat emplacement race.
This would leave space to place other race in the future and have the bubbles burst at varying points in history. Revealing the new races/ monsters. Or just have small pocket universes for small adventures.
Jonathan: Just to be clear, the VSE Coloneys are east of the Romulans on the west side of the ISC. In my above post that is.
Anyway, we are all just logging our brainstorming here, right?
Early ISC ships in limited numbers escaping the Andromidans would pose no threat the the rest of the Alpha Sector. And having the Andromadins attack the west of ISC space with their original equipement is not a problem either.
Eh?
Andromedans are a last and seperate issue. And probably a big optional one as they have such far-reaching effects. An early invasion, stronger invasion, singular space invasion (setup of their own space somewhere) are all ideas that could go into their section, but for the most part the SFUalternate should stick to 'standard invasion' for their timeline for balance and sanity issues.
Western Relations
KlingonKommonwealth
I like this klingonized name. The question is what we do with them now. What if we stuck with the Klingon warrior theme but made them REALLY honourable warriors? Like Knights and Paladins? Give them a real altruistic streak?
So the KK would have definite conflicts with the VSE, peaceful relations with the Hydrans, and occasional conflicts with the CATalliance.
Is the big cat alliance good or evil? I would say somewhere in between...feral and xenophobic. Keeps them active that's for sure but not to the point of outright invasion of others perhaps.
If the Hydrans are merchants and have bases on gas giants all over the sector(?), would they not also serve as mercenaries or is that too conflicting to be both merchants and mercenaries?
I still don't quite have a handle on how a Western sphere timeline might look but I really like the idea of KlingonKnights.
Actualy how about Klingons as Mercenaries? If we assume they are more economicaly agresive, but were at an initial disadvantage economicaly (because of there location) selling military services would be a natural way to increase their revinue. This might also stop the VSE from comiting all forces in the east. Even if the Klingons weren't themselves agresive the VSE would have to worry about them being hired out by the Cats who might want to atack.
I too have a thing for Knights.
Do we really want to call them the Klingon Kommonwealth Knights?? Bet we ought to stay far away from that one!
Hydrans: Merchanting would be some of what they do but that wasn't the original intent, I think. I saw it as a Mutual Agreement to share systems to each races mutual benifit. A part of the Colonization Treaty would the a Mutual Defence agreement. So the Hydrans would be seen in combat but not so mush as mercenaries. Though, perhaps there would be some good reason to be apart of an attack fleet. With the risk of meeting up with Hydran Mercenaries in the opposing fleet, I would expect no Fleet Admiral to rely too much on the Hydrans.
Kommonwealth? Uggh... I'd rather stick to Commonwealth; the alliteration is sufficient without making the point explicit.
I'm wary of the idea of the Klingon Commonwealth fighting other peoples' wars for them, for whatever reason; but I could get behind the idea that a portion of the Klingon "navy" is composed of privately-owned ships - perhaps the LGU equivelent of the ISF is privatized?
The Hydrans would be merchants, not mercenaries; however, with two factions of Hydrans at war with one another, it's entirely possible that Klingons and Lyrans might end up with allies of convenience in the form of different groups of Hydrans... (BTW, are the Fusion Ships balanced against the Hellbore Ships?)
remember that the hydrans won't just be overlapping the klingons, they could overlap all the races.
I like the knight theme for the Kommonwealth.
Instead of honor for honor's sake, there is more of a "higher good" that underpins their honor. (This "higher good" does not have to be religious. It can simply be a "concept" or "principle" that they have built their society around.) Their methods are still forceful, but now they are concerned with the common good of their Empire rather than just its honor.
And despite that, the subject races are still subjects. Sure, non-Klingons would be allowed to enter the "knighthood" if they so desired, though this would be fairly uncommon. Regardless, the other races still aren't Klingons.
I do think they would be expansionistic. Both economically (like the "real" Federation) and militarily. I see their military efforts much like the "real" ISC, except that they want to actively change the other empires, not just separate them and hope change occurs. They want to help the other empires turn from their "dark" paths, and find the "light" path.
I also really like the idea of the Hydrans being spread out, interlaced within the Kommonwealth and, potentially, the VSE. I imagine the Cats still view them as potential mealtime snacks, and so don't cohabitate.
I also agree that the Andros shouldn't arrive early.
I don't see the VSE as being too expansionistic. Once it reaches its "Federation" size (though shifted west) it would stop expanding and work on "developing" its internal systems and stabilizing its western neighbors. On the east, it would be fending off those "fanatic" Klingons.
I don't think there would be a "Free Human" state, as the humans would have been integrated very quickly by the Vulcans. Instead I think the Orions should perform that role. They would exist in their single province right between the Kommonwealth and VSE, trying to keep their "Free Orion" independent.
I like the idea of the ISC as a western counter-balance to the VSE. The Gorns, Romulans (in however many factions) and Paravians are left feuding between them. And while the ISC may wish to be expansionistic, I view them as being pretty much static at their "real" ISC borders.
I see the small states continually trying to pit the VSE and ISC against each other so that they can continue to exist and perhaps even grow. This, of course, doesn't work too well, as the others are doing the same things, resulting in a continued mess of ever changing borders. (The VSE and ISC borders don't change; just the Gorn, Romulans and Paravians.)
The more I think about it, the more I love the Klingon Knighthood theme. In fact, it ties in very well with the OldKings. The Klingons could simply believe that they were the chosen servants of the OldKings and seek to restore their kingdom in the SFU.
As to the VSE and ISC being non expansionistic...why the heck not? We have to have some major conflict and fun somewhere. The VSE's reasons for expansion are to instill logic and order everywhere under one banner. The ISC seek to put an end to the lesser race's squabbling under their banner. Whatever works to make the product intersting, and these two races certainly have the economy and the ships to do it.
I would think that the VSEs logic would be that "A conquered enemy is not a threat to the Empire. While treatys are good they do not disarm your rivals and a threat remains. Logic dictates that treatys in good standing are worth maintaining. Unstable agreements, however, can result in greater cost to the Empire over time and should be reviewed for possible alternatives."
Klingon Knighthood could be based on the teachings of a stranded "Old King" who passed away several hundred years prior. The Knightly Order can work hand in hand with a economically agressive Parlamentary Government. The Klingons might not have a Empiror but an actual King. This might be a reason they relate better with the Hydrans. They have a common ground of understanding.
The Hydrans can get along with the VSE because they managed to show the logic of the potential profit that shared systems can produce over conflict. While the VSE might not trust the Hydrans directly they woud trust their motivations. Hence, positive active trade. I wouldn't be surprised that the Klingons would be willing to tollerate this for a small surtax on all goods moving through their space from the VSE.
RE: Klingon Knighthood: What earth empire do we model them on? Spain or Portugal might work well.
In the existing universe, the Hydrans are, essentially Victorian English. Given the changes that are being discussed, the Hannsa might be a good model for them in this alternate universe.
Where is the conflict with an expansionistic VSE and ISC?
Well, you have all of the cold war games between them. Instead of being expansionistic, they both believe in buffer states. So, you end up with a beautiful, classic cold war situation between the VSE and ISC. (I mean we ARE looking for role playing scenarios, not just big fleet battles, right?)
The reason I think the VSE and ISC should NOT be expansionistic is because otherwise they will inevitably crush those between them. By keeping the VSE and ISC borders relatively stable, the others between them are allowed to be highly dynamic. If you are looking for big F&E level conflict, this isn't that great. But it is absolutely wonderful for great, classic role playing situations.
For the F&E stuff, we have the other side of the VSE, were you still have the highly expansionistic Kommonwealth. (I know it is probably silly, but I like spelling it that way.) There will be continual conflict between the Kommonwealth and all of its neighbors (except the Hydrans) as they try to spread their influence.
Between the Kommonwealth and VSE, most of this conflict will be economic, but there is still plenty of actual armed conflict that will pop up, especially over the Orions.
And the cats will likely be fighting everyone around them on a fairly continual basis. They hate everyone: Carnivons, Hydrans, Kommonwealth and VSE.
(BTW, after looking at the F&E map, I advocate shifting the VSE five hexes, not six. By using five, Orion is just inside the VSE border and the Gorns are just outside. If you use six, then two of the Gorn worlds are actually on the border.)
I would like to say that Mike's idea sounds good:
Quote:By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:58 pm: Edit
disengage cloak
The idea of the VSE vs. ISC does have some interesting parallels...
I can imagine that while the Western races are squabling amongst each other the VSE / ISC could be waging a type of cold war - - complete with buffer 'states' (Rom / Gorn) between the two... especially if those two races are splintered up.
re-engage cloak
If this whole Cold War thing goes.
What if the Orion Pirate ships, are now Orion Mercenaries, being hired out by the ISC/VSE to help the Gorns fight each other, and the Romulans fight the Gorns.
Since both (from the sounds of it) VSE/ISC wouldn't want their ships involved in the actual combat.
And then the WYN Fish ships, become the "National" Orion ships, for their home territory.
The Orion Union (or whatever it's name is) making Fish ships, at it's shipyard. Then secret shipyards making the "Pirate" vessels.
Since both designs are so similar. Just bring it under one banner of 'Orions'.
The ColdWar sounds cool, but to an SFB'er that sounds like 'few and minor battles', which is boring.
So to put one section of my proposed eastern timeline under a microscope for a bit;
Both the VSE and ISC make plans for invasion of the fractured gorn, paravian, rom eastern powers. But once the VSE and ISC make contact and realize there is another major power in the area, a major war erupts between the two with the intervening gorn, rom and paravian powers as the prize. These minor powers quickly ally with the VSE or ISC as their only means of salvation (Paravian with ISC, RomEmp with VSE, Gorns neutral?).
Two major military operations, one by the VSE and one by the ISC, make a nearly simultaneous prolonged thrust into Gorn/Paravian/Rom space. Both proceed with great success at first. As the advance begins to slow and both prepare for capitol assaults, forces have to be diverted to prevent the loss of the other capitol to the enemy. Both forces are pushed back until an armstice is called, and an uneasy and long cold war settles in.
Again, that's just a snapshot of how the coldwar could be setup and still provide for some major battles in the beginning. As well, there could be two assaults planned but the second is diverted to halt the first.
Robert,
I never meant to imply the cold war idea was original. :-) I was merely supporting it.