Pushed forward partly by the Traveller thing, we're going to embark on a push to do a lot of deck plans. I'm talking serious plans like those done to date for the Fed FFG, Klingon G1, Romulan SkyHawk, Free Trader, Federation Express, and whatever others we have done.

I'm going to be using the services of, well, just about anybody who can actually perform the work, paying something like $100 for a destroyer and $150 for a cruiser. (If you want a job, email me.)

But what keeps coming up is "What goes on the plans?" and I don't know. I mean, I can design a house (I've been in several and know that they have a garage, a kitchen, a laundry room, a dining room, a living room, a den, other entertaining spaces, bedrooms, bathrooms, and closets. Oh, and doors and an HVAC system.)

I've never been on a starship and have no idea what is on one beyond the SSD. I could, I guess, look at all of the plans we have, and make a list of features, and at least I'd know if a deck plan artist forgot the turbolift.

So what I want from you guys is to construct a protocol list. What's on a ship? How many square feet do we need? How much storage?

I hope you see my point and can contribute some information.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 02:24 pm: Edit

DECK PLANS PROTOCOL LIST, DRAFT 1

THINGS ON THE SSD
Weapons
tractors
labs
control stations
shuttle bay
transporters
batteries
hull
power (warp, impulse, reactor, battery)
probe launcher

THINGS NOT ON THE SSD
Turbolift system
reaction thrusters
corridors
offices
sensor-scanner
computer
staterooms
mess hall
kitchen
food storage
spare shuttles
cargo storage
air locks
elevators
vertical access (HVAC)
spiral staircases
brig
arms room
medical bay
theater
bowling alley
shooting gallery
gym
conference rooms
public rest rooms
mustering and staging spaces
cargo storage
ramps to ground
landing legs

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 02:54 pm: Edit

Not on the SSD:
Engineering spaces.
Munitions Storage (Drones, T-Bombs, etc.)

Items not needed on deck plans:
Shield generators (these are part of the hull).

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Water tanks: the Snipe deck plans included water tanks on the bottom-most deck.
Pool: in the fiction story Doomward and the Vortex, the Lyran CW Doomward has a pool in which some kind of water polo variant was played. So at least some species might enjoy swimming enough to justify a pool.

By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Concur with the above (especially the water tanks; typically just inside the outer hull).

I'll give this some serious thoughts, but that will take a few days.

My first bit of input would be to make sure the layout of decks (deck-height, how many decks, etc.) takes into account the space needed for the various system runs. This would include air recirculation, water lines, data transfer, electrical power or EPS plasma (if you go that route for power), etc.

Anyone who has been aboard a large ship, or seen an airplane with the interior linings removed will be familiar with this.

The systems that keep people (or whatever) alive and make equipment work take a certain minimum room, even with future materials and technology. What can never scale down is the size of the person who has to get at them for servicing and repairs. That access volume is somewhat fixed.

Unfortunately, many folks doing deck plans forget to leave room *between* the habitable vertical space on each deck for these runs. What is a 6-inch low-velocity air duct nowadays may indeed be a 1-inch ubertech air transfer in the future, but a human hand will still need room to get behind it and unlatch/uncouple things, tilt it for removal, etc.

I believe Nick Blank rolls them into his spacing (not depicting them, but allowing room for them) and this is probably a good approach.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 03:34 pm: Edit

What also should be on them are AIRLOCKS and other connections to externally docked things like freighter pods and so forth, which would include boarding areas for when a ships is docked to a starbase or whatever, so that the crew and cargo do not have to use transporters.

This also applies t tug/pod connections etc for bases too.

On Klingon ships especially but on all races ships: these should also show a Security station/post for the redshirt who is watching the airlock for security violations.

This came to mind because when I was in the USN I was the guy who had to do this in-port ...

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 03:35 pm: Edit

The big question is how much reality we should allow to intrude.

Fuel storage, for example, is a MASSIVE consideration on modern spacecraft. By far one of the largest chunks of mass allotted for.

Even in the "Star Trek" future, we have deuterium and antimatter we need to store...and the range of the ship will be affected by that (and food stores, and oxygen stores, etc). How do we know how to reflect that in the designs? Presumably, we could guess that one of the compromises of a 'war cruiser' vs a 'heavy cruiser' of a race is that the 'heavy cruiser' can equip enough fuel/oxygen/food/medicine/spare parts for a "five year mission" (with brief stops at local stations for needed resupply) but the 'war cruiser' only enough for a 6 month or so "war patrol" never that far from major fleet installations...

...but that isn't something that, to date, is really addressed in any SFU product. And, theoretically, makes a REALLY BIG DIFFERENCE, here (and, obviously, in any other RPG products).

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Other things (off the top of my head) not on the SSD:
Machine shops
Tool closets/storage
Medical supply storage
Officer's dining room/wardroom
Server rooms (not just main computer, but support systems as well)
IT/technology support

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 03:45 pm: Edit

Effective paths to get munitions from the storage area(s) to the deployment/launch points. Corridors connecting drone racks or shuttle bays to the storage should be wide enough without tight corners so the drone can be moved as needed.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 03:47 pm: Edit

At the risk of pissing people off (like I tend to do sometimes), I would REALLY recommend looking at FASA's deck plans for the Fed CA and Klingon D7. Even the warbird deck plans can provide inspiration.
Are they "kosher" from an engineering standpoint? No, probably not. But they are a good start.
I use mine when describing stuff in fiction...very inspirational.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Fuel: Remember that a starship basically make its own fuel by sucking in interstellar gas. Fuel is needed only to accelerate or decelerate.

FASA plans: I cannot say I have ever seen them and cannot endorse or reject them without seeing them.

Munitions storage is going to be right next to the weapons (at worst, on the next deck down). You're just not going to be carrying a 16 inch shell from one end of the ship to the other.

Servers: Nah. Basically, if it's not on the published plans, you have to convince me it's a huge mistake to omit it on future plans, otherwise, you're just borrowing trouble and looking for needless extra work.

Standard ceiling is eight feet. I always allow 3 meters (10 feet) so give two feet for deck beams and power circuits and water pipes and air vents.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 04:12 pm: Edit

[not on topic]

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 04:32 pm: Edit

FASA D7 Plans here.

FASA Fed CA plans here.

I have no idea if those are in the public domain or not, or if the guy who posted them has permission to do so. But it's out there for reference. For how long? I have no idea.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 04:35 pm: Edit

[not on topic]

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 05:24 pm: Edit

Would fuel storage be primarily in the engine nacelles?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 05:25 pm: Edit

This is NOT the topic to discuss how starships make or use fuel. That's just not relevant. The fuel tanks on published plans give more than adequate guidance on this issue.

Fed warships have fuel in the nacelles. Ships with "tiny little engines" (Klingon, Kzinti) store it in the hull.

By Michael Bennett (Mike) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 05:28 pm: Edit

arboretum

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Which empires are first on the list to be considered?

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Well, the comment that started that whole 'fuel' discussion was about MORE than just the fuel, itself. Also included in expendables would be the food, oxygen, medical supplies, 'spare parts', resource metal (for the machine shop to work with), etc - in the context of identifying what would be some of the significant differences between 'war' destroyers/cruisers/etc vs 'pre-war' (can we call these 'fleet' designs or something like that?) destroyers/cruisers/etc.

Given the 'war'-series ships have roughly similar combat capabilities to the 'prewar'-series ships, yet are much smaller, it would seem to imply that an Awful Lot Of Stuff has been removed from them. Certainly, some of that shows up on the SSD, in having fewer 'hull boxes', but what is all the stuff that is removed to reduce their volume so much? Seems like that it is exactly this - expendables (not as important for ships not expected to go on long-term solo missions) and comfort.

Not much on the SSD, but it would be expected to be obvious and a big difference in deck plans.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 06:04 pm: Edit

And something already on the list (cargo) and already on previous plans.

You guys need to make sure we covered the bases, not try to take credit for bases that were covered years ago.

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 06:11 pm: Edit

I assumed 3 meters per deck allowed room for the corridors/ceilings/floors and all the conduits/piping/wiring and so on without figuring out those details, because they are boring. We really just need to know where the rooms are.

Gorn/Kzinti might need more space per deck, Hydrans less.

Slirdarians have to live with cramped quarters.

Other items, replicators/fabricators as appropriate.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 06:18 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Gorn/Kzinti might need more space per deck, Hydrans less

---

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 06:39 pm: Edit

SOmething I'd like to see on future deck plans is some consideration to wall thickness (maybe just a thicker line) and also when the MAIN power conduits and various environmental systems are. What I've seen before are decks spearated by only a small thin line and for game purposes that's OK I guess. But I think evey ship should have a service deck that is probably only a crawl space when main power lines, air ducts, water services, computer networking, and other things are packed away. Even if it is only a half meter thick and all access is from the floors above and ceilings below.

Game wise, these would be the decks you need to protect.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 06:42 pm: Edit

Actually, all deck plans published so far are based on 3m decks with overhead space, and all show vertical access where the plumbing goes to each deck. There is no "crowlspace deck" in the basement or attic of the ship.

By Robert Hyrneson (Hyrneson) on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 06:43 pm: Edit

We've kinda stumbled on the 800 lb gorilla I try to avoid in Treknology. So having said that, If I say something that is out of jive with what SVC or SPP think is consistent for the SFBverse, they can smack me to Siam.

First, a few pet snits. I'd like to see consistency in terms. If it has a bath, call it a bathroom, otherwise call if whatever SVC/SPP decide (restroom, WC, head, whatever). I'd prefer to see us use navel terms, head, locker, locker, etc for each area as appropriate.

The next is walls (bulkheads). I think they should have some allowance on the plans made for thickness, especially for pressurized and reinforced areas. As it's been noted, they aren't just for separating ares. There is usually stuff in there. Yup, D&D mapping is easier with just a line, but we aren't mapping a dungeon.

The last is the most contentious point: technology. TNG is not really the source material that the game drew from and I think we need to avoid using it now. Fabricators are used instead of replicators (with the associated raw material bins), for example. We also need to avoid basing too much on current tech. With respect to Xander, I don't think we need server rooms. Those seem to have been incorporated into the nodes we see around the hsips that constantly need an engineer working on them. By the same turn we don't want to throw out the sources we've been inspired from. The computer core area FJ planned for is HUGE! Maybe it's a five times redundant system or something.
In TOS the warp nacelles are not the Bussard Ramscoops that TNG gave us. Also, Dilithium is not fuel, but is used in the energy process.
That said, all technology is not the same from empire to empire or time to time. The Andros have shown just because it's a phaser on the SSD, it doesn't have to be a phaser like all others. Each race developed it's own tech, like warp. I think it's reasonable to believe that Race A uses one theory and B another, but we just generalize it and call it a 'warp engine'. But what is to say that early ships couldn't use one tech (like the Bussard Ramscoops or solar sails on the Fed FF plans), Gen War hulls used a more advanced design, and X ships went on to use yet another (maybe refining Bussard Ramscoops as a component). Let's keep some racial & era flavor as well as consistency.

We've had some amazing designs come along (the Tholians are really radical) & this game has some amazing folks who contribute. I'd like to see what we can do that is new and ingenious, while working from common parameters, and not just draw a starship dungeon or cob TNG tech.