Works for me!
;-)

Another side question.

If the floor of the cargo bay is on deck three, and you will place the cargo access for the transporter room some where on the same deck (deck three), would it make sense to have a air lock dedicated for cargo handling?

The other alternative would be a ramp or lift design giving access to the shuttle bay... which would need a door or other access to the cargo bay.

Otherwise, cross loading cargo to or from shuttles to the cargo bay would be unnecessarily difficult.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, July 02, 2015 - 07:13 pm: Edit

Garth, I remember that problenm with the Lyran CA and decided to place most of the Stairwells, VS and turbolift shafts (and the shuttlebay!) before dividing the space for single deck items, made life a little easier - of course getting all the horizontal shafts took a bit more time...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, July 04, 2015 - 08:01 am: Edit

You know, another difference between military APT design and civilian ownership/operations is the need to handle passengers.

In the real world, passenger ships often have an accomodation area, think of it as the lobby of a hotel or motel where the front desk is located. It allows new passengers to register/sign in, function as a help desk information kiosk. It would also facilitate baggage handling for those times the civilian APT is docked to an orbital base or civilian facility.

Perhaps there needs to be some sort of administrative office with a common wall near the transporter room as well as access to the shuttlebay and the air lock...

It would be a place for the ships steward (or the cargo load master in a pure cargo carrier, or even the exec's office where most of the ships business affairs are conducted in an auxillary APT.

This would be very different from the way it was done on the POL.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, July 04, 2015 - 10:49 am: Edit

Jeff;
Interesting idea, I could see this being a standard feature where the Cargo Master keeps track of what's on board the ship.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, July 04, 2015 - 04:27 pm: Edit

Exactly.

It is no different from a grocery store requiring a "back door man" to verify deliveries(initial reciepts to show that the invoiced items delivered were actually received), limit traffic in and out of the store to authorized persons and to ensure that salable product isn't removed out the back door by dishonest vendors or employees.

Lack of proper controls have killed more businesses than tornados, earthquakes or tsunamis. Its called bankruptcy.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Saturday, July 04, 2015 - 09:21 pm: Edit

Since the APT's commander's options are maxed out buying a single T-bomb or extra crew, it might be that the T-bomb storage is converted to bunks if extra crew or BPs are carried. There might be more APTs without the T-bomb storage than with it.

I now realize that the prohibition on T-bombs is for freighters, not for civilians (S3.213).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, July 04, 2015 - 09:43 pm: Edit

Sheap,

Makes sense.

I wonder what percentage of APT's operating in the alpha octant are actually "vanilla" configuration.... it is possible that there are some refitted variants "out there" that have had the phaser three mount replaced with a phaser 2 or had a mech link installed on the tractor so the original shuttle hanger couldbe replaced with something else (more cargo? Aft hull? APR?)

The reason the question is important, is because the more vanilla APT's that are "out there" means a higher percentage of the APT's are limited to the basic number of original cabins installed on the ship.

The "working number" so far discussed in this topic has varied between 10 and 12, with the higher number actually just a smidgion too big for the range of crew units listed in the master shipchart (G-3)

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Sunday, July 05, 2015 - 01:28 am: Edit

An "obvious" variant might be to add a deck to the high bay, use needed space for life support, and add cabins.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, July 05, 2015 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Following that line of reasoning a little farther might lead us to conclude that the various conversions for commando ships that add barracks modules to the Free Trader designs that resulted in the Free Trooper and the Free Tanker types likely included some sort of "plug in" module to increase the basic free traders life support capacity beyond that of the basic ship.

Is it possible that such a "barracks module" simply connects to the ships recycling systems for air and water supply, and a shunt or distribution system for waste water and solids?

I find it hard to accept that a standard conversion that has been done many times in most major empires includes running a sewage line through personnel corridors to get to where ever the waste is processed. It more likely that there is a infrastructure of pipes and conduits running the length of the ship, with certain access points adjacent to the cargo bays for use when barracks modules are installed.

AND HECK NO, I WILL NOT DRAW A SCHEMATIC DEFINING THE APT WATER, AIR and SEWAGE SYSTEMS. (Capitalization used for emphasis. The shouting will commence later.)

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, July 05, 2015 - 01:35 pm: Edit

Jeff, that's actually not a half-bad idea. Part of the conversion from APT to CUT might be to add some more air handlers / HVAC capability in the cargo area.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, July 05, 2015 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Garth,
Your topic, your project, I'm just trying to help around the edges. (Grin)

I know TOS in the tribbals episode talked about a ventilation system... fortunately it must be smaller than humansized or the franchise would have used it like john mcclane in the die hard movie Or voyage to the bottom of the sea(although the image of man sized vents connecting compartments on a frackin submarine that occasionally floods is laughable).

What ever air handlers/HVAC capability exists in the SFU, they need safety systems that prevent accidental depressure incidents.

if I were allowed a guess, I would assume that the main conduits handle fresh water, compressed air(or pure oxygen) and sewage return...that means the air handlers wouldscrub/remove carbon monoxide, add O2, regulate air pressure. The HVAC probably conduct some sort of air conditioning(ie add heat or remove heat from compartment air, possibly using some sort of heat exchanger).

But moving large volumes of used air to be reheated by some sort of furnace in a centralized system seems unlikely.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, July 05, 2015 - 09:59 pm: Edit

Jeff, it's all good. I'll try to get more done worth posting in a couple of days.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jack Bohn (Jackbohn) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 07:08 am: Edit

In a submarine, they do condition the air in the ducts (which are not man-sized, and you could not crawl through anyway because--) running running pipes of chilled water to cool and dehumidify it, with electric heaters to warm it, if wanted, closer to the vent.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 07:40 am: Edit

Crawling through ducts is pretty much just a thing that happens on TV. They are too small for a person (but not for a small animal or robot)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 08:46 am: Edit

well as entertaining as talking about tribbals and ducts/ventilation systems is, the subject is floor plans for APTs and the CUT.

I have a geneal question for the proposals board... should the APT have a "belly ramp" that allows access directly into the cargo bays?

Admittedly, its a little star wars like on the melinnial falcon, but the APT is able to land on planets with atmosphere. The APT has six cargo boxes on the SSD, it would make sense that cargo handling be a function that could be easily handled both on an off the ship, but also internlly for cross loading between the transporter and theshuttle bay.

While were at it, should the cargo area have any special equipment?

In the real world, warehouse, businesses that sell product such as grocery stores or "big box stores" like best buy, walmart, sears, kmart target all have pallet jacks, fork lifts for the larger stores... should we assume that cargo on APT and other such types(federation express courier) uses some sort of pallet system? It might be as simple as anti gravity equipped pallets cotroled by a hand held unit (tricorder?)

Point is, the crew on a APT doesn't have infinite bodies, and some crew members will be busy on other duties than cargo handling... canwe just assume that the two deck crews assignedto the shuttle bay also handle all cargo as part of their duties?

Just a thought.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 11:20 am: Edit

One would think there might be some sort of defense against hostile robots or some such in the ducts? All kinds of nasty stuff out there.

Or perhaps not on an APT.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Sounds like a GURPs Prime Directive issue.

Let's just package all of the HVAC air duct issues together and send it up to jean Sextons attention? With anyluck, she'll delegate it to a Slirdarian non commissioned enlisted for handling.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 01:33 pm: Edit

Slidarian Corporal; I have just the charge for that job.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 03:09 pm: Edit

Jean tosses the package out the airlock. It was improperly addressed to "jean Sextons" and everyone knows that is a sign it could be hazardous.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 03:51 pm: Edit

Garth, looks like you'll need to find another method to handle life support issues on the APT. All of the schematics, technical specs and the Slirdarian test data got chucked out the air lock with Web Mom's proactive security measures. Let's hope steve doesn't trip over it, him having a bum knee and all.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Monday, July 06, 2015 - 04:02 pm: Edit

RE: Belly ramp ... on my old design, which in theory still could be viable, there was such a ram intended because the ship was only three decks. This design has a fourth deck with all the APRs and a lot of the life support equipment and therefore does not. I figure the "armor belt" is the cargo bay door / ramp/lift.

RE: Cargo handling ... it's hard to see on that scale, but if you look at the 26 June image you may notice six forklifts in each cargo bay on deck three.


Garth L. Getgen

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, July 07, 2015 - 04:17 pm: Edit

A belly ramp seems like it would occupy far too much of the cargo volume. Side mounted ramps that fold into the hull might be a much more efficient layout.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Tuesday, July 07, 2015 - 05:41 pm: Edit

One option is, instead of a belly ramp, to simply have the ship land with the cargo bay flush on the ground. Then you can just open a door in the side and roll things in and out.

Another option is to have a large open elevator that extends straight down from the belly of the ship. Effectively, a section of the bottom of the hull can be lowered by struts. This is a little more awkward than a ramp for some purposes, but much simpler for others, and it doesn't take up any cargo volume (except what's needed for the struts).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, July 07, 2015 - 06:00 pm: Edit

Sheaps suggestion might be the best option.

Depending on dimensions and how much load such a lift can handle, a 3 meter by 3 meter lift could extend down however far you need, and assuming telescoping casing and a cable and pulley system the hard ware could either be in the deck or over head if you wanted the lift to reach the level of the head area on the second deck.

you could go larger, but the load increases along with the area of the lift.

It would make some sense if the free trader and the free trooper had ramps installed so the APC and Tanks could roll on/roll off.

might be a nice feature for GURPS PD if a player operated civilian APT could deploy thier own tanks and APC's with the mercenaries they hire...

(grin)

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, July 07, 2015 - 11:22 pm: Edit

Well, how much space/ stuff is "one cargo space?"

IIRC a Tank is about as much space as a Shuttle in storage.

So a tank is 6mx3mx3m? And assume 50% OVERAGE?