Garth, very nice summation! What is the status of this project? Anything left to be done?

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, February 10, 2018 - 12:04 am: Edit

Write all the text description / background information. Final inspection looking for any minor fixes. Maybe redesign the sick bay. Possibly replace the shuttlecraft icons with something closer to ADB's design, rather than the Franz Joseph version I'm currently using. Change anything and everything that SVC doesn't like. The biggest thing is the text, which I haven't even begun to write.

Typo in above: Deck Five Aft, the chief Lodgings are single rooms, not "sing rooms".


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, February 10, 2018 - 12:21 am: Edit

I just assumed they were part of the ships music department! Grin.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, February 10, 2018 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Just one suggestion:if you do decide to redesign the sick bay, you might consider reducing the capacity from four surgical bays to two, and add two or four emergency surgery bays for the two forward auditoriums located on deck four, forward. If the medical equipment were stored, then the auditoriums could be used normally most of the time... but in an emergency the chairs removed and the surgical equipment installed.

Other than that, I can't find anything that I think need to be changed.

Fine job.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 12:48 am: Edit

I received a note from someone asking how many Brig Cells a ship should have. A Police boat, of any empire, should probably have more than a regular warship, obviously. How many is kind of up to the designer.

I figure a normal warship would have room for perhaps a dozen or so prisoners, call it two to four cells each able to handle three or four, up to six, people per cell. I would expect their main use is to hold troops who got in a bar fight or lipped off to a superior officer. Bigger ships need larger brigs, typically.

You should also designate a multi-purpose area, such as a cargo room or gymnasium, where you can hold prisoners-of-war when you capture enemy ships. Keep the officers segregated from the enlisted.

As to the Federation Police Boat, I have twenty individual cells, each barely big enough for a bed and a "throne". No room for pacing about. Remember, these are holding cells, not prison cells.

I didn't set out with a fixed number of cells in mind. It just turned out that I had room for two separate brigs, each with two rows of five cells.

In an early draft, I had one large cell in each brig, but after thinking about it, I realized they'd be locking up real criminals, not drunken sailors, so you'd want to keep them separated.

Is twenty cells enough? Normally, I suppose so, but if not, the gymnasium is available for the overflow. Also, I have more crew quarters than the boat needs (unless you max out additional crew with Commander's Points).


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 02:18 am: Edit

One cell for a drunk tank, and a NAS box on the warden's desk as a backup transporter buffer.

"You're under arrest."
/tweeeeeeeeee
"You, you're under arrest, too.
/tweeeeeeeeee
"Aw, screw it. Engineering, just grab them all."
/tweeeeeeeeee
/tweeeeeeeeee
/tweeeeeeeeee

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, February 24, 2018 - 06:48 pm: Edit

I would comment that even with a police ship, the number of cells is relative to size. A heavy cruiser (perhaps even a light cruiser) is likely to have the same number of cells as a police cutter (at the least). Cruisers pick up prisoners too (the survivors of the enemy ship that did an "emergency beamout" just before their ship blew up due to damage in battle for example.

A police cutter might have more cells, proportionally, compared to a frigate or a destroyer, but all ships need holding cells for those instances when they are stuck with a lot of people they need to lock up, and not all the people needing to be secured are going to be criminals, they may well be (as noted) survivors of hostile warships (which could well have been pirate ships).

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 12:59 pm: Edit

I was talking with an old friend this past weekend and showed her the deck plans. When I said the ship has a crew of about a hundred, she asked if that's enough to run the ships 24/7. Yes, I made sure I have everything covered in the crew roster.

In my mind, the bridge needs five people on duty at all times: Center Seat, Helm, Nav, Sensors, Comm. Engineering needs three or four engine / reactor techs plus an officer / chief. I have three crewmen for each position, one for each shift. This also allows manning the AuxCon and/or Emergency Bridge during combat (means waking people up).

As to shift rotation, my plan is everyone works 12-hour shifts five days a week and 8-hour shifts for the other two days (weekends). Occasionally, someone might get a full day off (shift covered by a non-rated junior crewman).

For the duty positions above, they man their post for eight hours, and the other four hours are spent in training, drill exercises, routine maintenance, and KP duty (cooking / cleaning).

For non-critical jobs (e.g., lab techs, yeoman), it's the same 5x12/2x8 hours, but main hours are on the day shift.

Two other options, which work better on larger ships (DD and above) with four or five teams, are the standard dog-watch schedule of the modern navy and a modified version.

The dog watch schedule has five four-hour shifts and two two-hour shifts per days: 0000-0400 / 0400-0800 / 0800-1200 / 1200-1600 / 1600-1800 / 1800-2000 / 2000-2400. This works with either four or five teams but can work with three teams.

The other version (one I came up with, so I don't know if it's actually used anywhere) has three six-hour and two three-hour shifts: 0000-0600 / 0600-1200 / 1200-1500 / 1500-2100 / 2100-2400. I played with the numbers and figured out it doesn't work well if the three-hour shifts are together. It has to be 6-6-3-6-3. It works best with four teams but can work with three teams. It doesn't work well with five teams as there would be no rotation.

Another option with four teams is four six-hours shifts, no rotation, no days off. Again, they could have four or five 12-hour shifts per week, six hours at their main job and six hours of training / drills / chores.

My friend and I were both Air Force weather and spent most of our careers working rotating shifts. We'd have typically five people per duty position and would work a four-on/two-off schedule, days this week, swings next week, then mids (nights) the following week, and then back to days again. Looks pretty on paper but it's hard on the body after a few years.

Last time I deployed, I had a three-man team (including myself) and was told to work two-on/one-off or four-on/two-off rotating 12-hour shifts, flipping days to nights and back every couple days. I talked it over with my troops and we all agreed to simply work 8-hour shifts / no days off for the entire 99-day deployment. It's not like we had much to do in our down time anyways.


Garth L. Getgen

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 02:16 pm: Edit

I think a schedule that is so tightly coupled to a full crew roster will prove impractical. Any illness or temporary detachment would force the rest of the crew to use medical means to have extended shifts without sleep. The actual schedule would more likely be adjusted to resemble that necessary for a prize crew with extra personnel made use of as needed.

My experience included a field exercise at 50% strength because a large portion of deploy-able personnel were diverted to the critical support of a Boy Scout event. Twas fun. Fortunately, not likely to be an issue for the crew of a fictional ship.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 05:50 pm: Edit

Agreed, but within the confines of the size of the crew, set at ~100 by the rules, I had little choice but to build the roster at a one-chair = one-body ratio. I had a little room to pad it with a few non-rated junior enlisted, but that was pushing as far as I could.

And yes, I've been there, forced to suck up 12-hour shifts due to multiple people gone TDY/deployed/on leave at the same time. You do what you have to do, and so will the crew of a Star Fleet ship when it comes down to it. Indeed, it might be something mentioned in a fiction story. Suppose someone makes a mistake at a critical point in time because they're dog tired from working double-shifts for so long.


Garth L. Getgen

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Friday, August 17, 2018 - 05:52 pm: Edit

I swapped out the shuttles from the Franz Joseph 7.6 x 4.7 meter size to the ADB 6.75 x 4.25 meter size. This leaves enough space to shoehorn six shuttles into the bay. Even with the larger shuttles, there was space for five in the bay, but two would be crosswise and thus making it impossible to move them into place. I'll have to make a note in the text saying that the weight load would be too much for the floor, so you can't put more than three in the bay without risk of damage to the ship.

I'm considering doing another set of deck plans for a saucer-base cutter design. I made an SSD already; all the boxes are still there, just moved around to fit.


Garth L. Getgen

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Wednesday, January 16, 2019 - 07:36 pm: Edit

{sigh} I made a minor cosmetic change to the deck plans and asked my wife which version she liked better. She took that opportunity to point out that I had misspelled "Dilithium Chamber". I had it as "Dilithimum". It's been that way for *years*. {sigh}


Garth L. Getgen

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Friday, February 01, 2019 - 08:59 pm: Edit

I am almost done drafting the Police Cutter deck plans. Indeed, I thought I was done until I took another look at the Sickbay. I'm *still* not happy with it.

This is what it looks like right now: current sickbay

I think I'm going to tweak it to look like this: updated sickbay

Another possibility is the right-most version seen here.

I do remember that someone suggested that I scrap the whole thing and start over, because the surgery / trauma / autopsy area is too big. I'll think about that, and I am open to suggestions.

One limiting factor is I want to keep it left-right mirror-image symmetrical. Call it OCD, but the rest of the ship if symmetrical and I simply cannot bring myself to make sickbay non-symmetrical.

The size is locked in and can't be changed, not without redrawing half the ship. It can have doors anywhere along the top and left-right sides, but as there is a turbolift shaft / corridor along the bottom, the doors (if any) must be where they are now (or remove them).


Garth L. Getgen

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, February 01, 2019 - 09:21 pm: Edit

I like the flow of

---

Quote:

Another possibility is the right-most version seen here.

---

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Friday, February 01, 2019 - 10:31 pm: Edit

I just had an idea pop into my head. Take that right-most version and move the pharmacy back into the surgery area, taking out the center two tables. The reception desk will slide back some.

A good reason to keep the surgery / trauma towards the back is because of easier access from the lift down from deck two, how an injured person would be brought in by shuttlecraft.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, February 02, 2019 - 12:06 am: Edit

Garth, flow of personnel and patients seems a little off some how.

I agree with ADM, having surgery next to recovery seems like a good idea.

You might want to consider concentrating the exam and offices, pharmacy and isolation area into a separate suite (complete with a main entrance for non trauma patients) to handle "normal" clinic activities, and let surgery and recovery be configured for handling high volume emergency/trauma cases.

Even better, if there was a separate trauma entrance closer to the turbo lift and transporter rooms. Seconds count, and having non urgent care patients in the way can't be good for either staff or trauma patients. I Know that TOS didn't separate the functions... but it was a tv show, not a working hospital surgical ward.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, February 02, 2019 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Moving casualties to the sick bay has to consider arrivals from any source. That includes a wounded crewman in the photon torpedo crew being brought through the ship's corridors to the facility.

As always with anything on a ship, there are going to be tradeoffs, and 100% efficiency is never going to be obtained. You basically have to decide what is best to handle casualties on the ship itself during combat operations, and what is best for handling casualties arriving from outside the ship, both by shuttle and by transporter, and security because arriving casualties from all three sources could need to be guarded (the casualty from the torpedo might be an enemy marine from a failed hit-and-run raid, the casualties arriving by transporter may be evacuees from an enemy ship just before it self-destructed, the casualties arriving by shuttle may be prisoners taken in ground combat, and so on).

You might also need access to a "non-oxy-nitrogen breathers" facility, as your patient(s) might just happen to be Tholian(s) [which may need to be flexible enough to handle Hydran patients, although that seems unlikely in Federation space], and perhaps a low gravity environment capable room in case your patient(s) is/are Jindarian(s),

But a Federation Police ship's focus is probably going to be on treating crew casualties and unexpected medical emergencies on the merchant vessels it protects and inspects (the 10 man crew of a small freighter is unlikely to have access to someone who can do an emergency appendectomy for example) and to assist the medical personnel on small colonies. As such, it may forego being able to handle the more "exotic" situations (Tholians, Hydrans, Jindarians, Q'nabbians), but being able to restrain Kzinti and Slirdarian crewmen (Klingon or Kzinti freighters in Federation space during peacetime) might be a plus.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, February 02, 2019 - 06:21 pm: Edit

Okay, so I made small changes to existing designs and came up with two options to consider. As I'm doing separate images for both cutters, Masterson with straight warp pylons) vs. Callahan series with sweptback warp pylons, my current thought is to use both sickbays. The latter gives up two surgical tables and gains three recovery beds.

Masterson sickbay and Callahan sickbay

Both have surgery / trauma entrances on the "south" side, right near turbolift and spiral stairs. I cropped it off, so you can't see that there are lifts back further (near the Brig) that go up one deck to the gymnasium, which doubles as a mass casualty triage area.

Severely wounded brought in by shuttle can be lowered to Deck Two on the T-bomb lift to the Transporter room, then taken thru the gym to the lift down to Deck Three. The other Transporter is on Deck Three, again with easy access to Sickbay.

As Petrick said, 100% efficiency will never be obtained. I just have to make the best of what I have to work with. All in all, I think I'm about as happy as I ever will be with the latest designs.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, February 02, 2019 - 06:51 pm: Edit

One further suggestion:

The Callahan surgical bays, two in total appears to be connected(as in one could walk directly from one to the other without having to pass thru a door or hatch.)

I know MASH tv show had 4 surgical tables in one room, but that was a combat zone during war time.

In order to increase sterile conditions I would suggest putting a wall separating the surgeries in the ships center line. I would use the alcove thus created to hold body containers two in each space. This would increase the number from three to four coolers, representing a net increase in capacity by 33%.

It may be an unnecessary change, but any exposure to pathogens that can be avoided, should be avoided.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, February 02, 2019 - 06:51 pm: Edit

Looks good.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, February 02, 2019 - 07:38 pm: Edit

The other area on the ship that I had to make-do and accept as a compromise is the mess hall on Deck Seven.

Once again, I trapped myself by placemen of the stairs and turbolifts. It makes for a rather cumbersome service area with the way foot traffic will flow.

Cropped off the top of the screen are the two food pantries, 20x4.5 meters each, with the Cargo Bay high-bay (no access from this deck) between them. If my calculations were correct, that should be enough storage for meals for 100 personnel for at least 120 days.

Personally, I don't think the galley (kitchen) is all that efficient. I did take the printout over to restaurant we frequent (it's only a block away from our house) and asked a couple employees what they thought. First comment was "that will do okay", and the second was "I've worked in worse kitchens". So, with that ringing endorsement, it is what it is.

You all should have seen Steve Cole giggling like a school kid when he said, "It's even got a trash compactor, big enough to put a person in!"


Garth L. Getgen

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, February 02, 2019 - 07:48 pm: Edit

That's an interesting idea, Jeff. Not sure I can make it work, but I'll play with it. Thanks!!


Garth L. Getgen

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, February 02, 2019 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Jeff, is this what you meant??

Revised sickbay based on Jeff Wile's suggestion

Whether that exactly it or not, I actually like it better than the previous version.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, February 02, 2019 - 10:17 pm: Edit

Nailed it.

It's actually better than I visualized it.

Good job, guy!

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, February 03, 2019 - 09:20 am: Edit

Oh, the silly things I think of when it's a slow night at work. Just how many meals can the cutter's food pantry hold??

First, there are eight 2.5 x 2.5 meter dry goods storage shelves. Assuming they are 2.5 meters high, that's 15.625 cubic meters. Times eight units per pantry, times two pantries, that 250 m^3 or 8828 cubic feet.

I found a site that says to calculate 35-40 pounds of food per cubic foot to fill a chest freezer, and another site that says the average person eat 3-5 lbs of food per day, with 4 pound being typical.

Let's call it 36 pound per cubic foot and 4.5 pound eaten per day, one cubic foot will feed eight people per day.

With 8828 cubic feet, that will provide over 70,000 man-days of food. With a crew of 100, that's 700 days.

It gets better because there are also forty 1 x .75 x 2 meter freezers. That's 1.5 m^3 per freezer, but that's the outside dimensions, so let's call it one cubic each, for a total of 40 cubic meters cold storage, or another 1412 cubic feet. That adds another 11,000 man-days of food.

Even if we halve the amounts, to allow for packaging and such, the cutter should be able to sustain a 100-man crew for about 400-425 days before running out of food.

Ergo, my previous estimate of 120-150 days was a third of what it should have been. Good to know.

()


Garth L. Getgen