An external cargo lift is a non-starter for me.

There is an external door to the cargo hold for use when docked to a base. Not sure if an HTS can dock there, but SPP "appears" to imply it might be able to.


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Cain (Stevecain) on Tuesday, December 03, 2019 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Nominating Jeff for duel rate of HT and EM. May he never try to clear the head and run live wire at the same time.

jk Jeff. But I think that the weights issue is less issues than the volume of the masses.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Tuesday, December 03, 2019 - 03:25 pm: Edit

The turbolift can hold nine or ten standard-sized humanoid beings, but anything over five is "cozy".


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, December 03, 2019 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Anyone remember the old film clips of college fraternities competing to put more bodies into VW bugs? Or trying to see how many people could fit into a phone booth?

I have this picture in my mind of star fleet academy cadets trying to cram as many freshmen into a turbo lift as possible.

Oh... to be young!

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Tuesday, December 03, 2019 - 07:18 pm: Edit

I know that on the navy ships i work on. There are a number of access plates. They unbolt and are removed to get large things in and out of the lower decks. There are also on the bigger carriers and LHDs a double wide stair well that goes from the upper decks to the lower decks. The stairs can be dropped to make a large shaft to bring up lots of cargo.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, December 03, 2019 - 09:05 pm: Edit

Vandor, that might fit well with Garths post above looking at moving the stairwells... if the shaft walls were solid and able to take pressure as well as vacuume, removable stairs and platforms could work.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 12:15 pm: Edit

Yes and no, Jeff.

The building I work in has a loading dock (not sure why) that has a removable floor panel. When they upgraded the computer room air conditioner (CRAC) units and had to replace one of the chillers, they opened that panel to lower the equipment down to the lower level.

I would presume that all starships have deck plates that can be lifted out for major systems upgrades at space-dock.

What SVC was taking about, cargo hatches built into the decks of modern Navy ship, makes sense for occasional resupply, when taking on bullets and beans before going out to sea. But I can't see it being used to move things around the ship during combat.

I agree that I need to have a way to get supplies from the cargo hold to the shuttle bay and elsewhere that doesn't involve moving someone's bed to get at the floor hatch in their room.

I had calculated that drones could be moved via Turbolift presuming the drones could be broken down into two sections for transport. If that's not good enough, than the easiest thing will be to change the stairs & V/S into elevators. Drones will still need to be two-piece items, seeing as they're three meters long when ready to fire.

As I said, I can already see how to do it. The service area of the Mess Hall will give me a headache. Sad thing is, I'll lose the Black Box flight data recorder on Decks Four/Five.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 02:34 pm: Edit

Garth,

Most of the time we are on the same page. I absolutely support the job you are doing with deck plans, and if it seems that I am critical about petty stuff, I hope you can excuse my enthusiasm.

Cargo handling on a POL is not petty.

On occasion, loading or unloading cargo quickly, can be mission critical.

Think of it this way: as captain of a POL, do you really want the only way captain Kendrick can unload the crucial cargo, is by blowing nice big holes in your Ship? The idea that only a star base can access the cargo directly is a massive KIS (keep it simple) principle.

There is a solution. We just haven't figured it out yet.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Garth L. Getgen:

I was not trying to "imply," I was trying to think of a way to resolve part of the problem. The police cutter has two cargo boxes, each capable of holding 50 space points of cargo (See Annex #7K). Quite Literally these have the volume to hold two (2) tanks, or one (1) medium (size 3) bomber stored as cargo. It is possible, in the latter case, that the bomber in question actually comes in a number of separate packages, but it is not defined as such. But you are not going to be toting such things through the hull of the police cutter to its shuttle bay, unless you had set up from the start to use the shuttle bay as an access point directly to the cargo hold (and, Lord knows I do not want you to redesign the ship, but there are game mechanics to point out).

Given the above, and where we are, the best thought (and it was just a thought) that occurred to me was that there is an external hatch that goes direct to the cargo bay to allow the outsized cargo element. You do not need this to fill the cargo holds with 2,000 computer memory cubes (0.05 cargo space points each), but if you are carrying ten new defense satellites (10 cargo points each) as an emergency measure for the defense of colony Bathalzar III which has just discovered a rich vein of Dilithium crystals ...

One can assume that a given police cutter's cargo bay has some stockage of "emergency items" (medicines, tents, etc. for emergencies at isolated colonies), but in a pinch that cargo capacity can be used for any number of seeds of fiction stories (you just need to mention that the ship has "X" in its cargo bay that it is racing to deliver as the only available ship with warship speeds to get it there fast, and make sure it fits in the available cargo space, i.e., See Annex #7K).

And a cargo hatch directly to the bay seemed a way to resolve getting the "big things" into it, and the description of how an HTS works (folding down the sides for a "flatbed" so that it can back up and "dock" and use mini-tractors and maybe an anti-grav pallet to get the job done seemed a possible solution.

Beyond that, how do drones (0.5 cargo space point type-VI or anti-drone, 1 cargo space point type-I, two cargo space point type-IV), get delivered to the ship and put into drone storage, and then loaded into the drone racks or onto a scatter-pack shuttle is an issue. Probes (two cargo space points) are an issue because not only do they have to get to the probe launcher, but you can buy extra reload probes (I cannot, right now, remember if I ever did that, but I know it is allowed). Getting T-bombs (two cargo space points) not just to the shuttle bay to be shoved out the hatch, but to the transporter to be beamed out.

Sorry to be a bother here.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Garth loves a challenge and will get it right.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Moving the staircases would work and do not need a turbo lift. Just attach a anti grav thingy and move it around as you see fit. Just need a big enough hole to maneuver the cargo thru

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Remember this:

It is very easy to convert an FF SSD to an FFG, and easy to convert the FF SSD to an FFD or the FFG SSD to an FFD.

In "real life" figuring out where the drone storage is going to be, and making that storage accessible to all three drone racks (and the shuttle bay) during combat with the deck plans is another issue entirely.

On the SSD, the frigate will have one drone rack (type-G) at the back end (near the shuttle bay), but the other two (type-B) are replacing the photons near the front center of the frigate's mass. It will have (nominally) 20 spaces of drones in storage (16 drone spaces and eight anti-drones), the 16 drones of which can be used by ANY of the three drone racks in combat (exception, type-VIs can only be used by the type-G drone rack), or be loaded on a shuttle as either cargo or for a scatter-pack, or maybe on a Drogue that replaced one of the shuttles, and the "Y175 refit" will then add another 16 spaces of drones to the reload storage. And the reload storage might be further increased by drone spaces bought with Commander's Option Points.

So when laying out the deck plans, you should nominally allow for the delivery and movement of those drones, AND LET'S NOT FORGET THE PROBES FOR THE PROBE LAUNCHER.

And you have to make sure any of the changes you make to accommodate turning the FF into an FFD do not, for example, suddenly make it impossible to move the T-bombs to the transporters, or to the shuttle bay (remember those?).

And remember that (G25.0) provides for moving some items of cargo by transporter during a scenario (including "explosive ordnance") to being able to move other things from a cargo or storage area to the transporters, as well as to the shuttle bay, are issues.

Like I said before, there are reasons shipwrights get paid the big bucks, because they have to plan for all of that, and make sure that everyone's quarters has running water, a functioning toilet, and electrical outlets where needed, not to mention functional life support in general. (Most of which no doubt makes Garth very happy that he just has to draw walls an not actually figure out how to run all of those power and water connections all over the ship, but make them all accessible for repair crews to fix important things during battle, like restoring power to the sensors so that you can see to fire the weapons at an antagonist).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 06:32 pm: Edit

In short, I very much appreciate the effort and detail the drawers of ship deck plans (even for the lowly Klingon G1 deck plans) go through, but I am well aware of how much more complicated it really is.

A lot of stowage has to be compartmentalized because, for example, if all of your ship's water was in a single tank, and a hole was created by damage to that tank and vacuum ...

You could find that even though your ship is otherwise operable, there is not enough liquid to keep your crew alive to reach safe harbor.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 06:43 pm: Edit

Like I said!

Just blow a nice big hole through the secondary hull, top to bottom, and you could even move a medium bomber to the shuttle bay!

Of course, getting pressure back in all 8 decks might take the damage control teams more than a single 32 impulse SFB game turn...

We just might have to just bow to the inevitable conclusion that a successor variant of the Callahan class must have existed, the one that was able to convert the cargo bay to an expanded shuttle hanger (was it the POV that carried 6 fighter boxes and a couple of admin shuttles?).

This subclass variant had the normal shuttle bay, but moved the cargo bay up next to the shuttle deck because cargo HAD TO BE ACCESSIBLE. That means the production of the Callahan class had to wind down because of operational design defects. Inability to handle cargo internally wouldn't show up on a shakedown cruise, or even in combat. But it would mean the ship couldn't support cargo missions, rescue, FEMA operations etc.

Some things would work, refugee evacuations, personnel transfer missions, possibly even light survey work if a POL carried the personnel and some other vessel brought the equipment, extra shuttles, emergency shelters for the survey personnel to live in planet side...still, that leaves the 8 cargo box requirement unfilled.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 06:45 pm: Edit

Hey SPP, just how big is a T-bomb (or even 1 cargo point-sized volume).

Let's see, a cargo bay that is one cargo box holds 50 cargo points plus maneuvering room for storage placement. The few times it was seen on ST(TNG?) it's shown as a double deck (the shuttle bay is a triple deck IIRC [where did I place those old blueprints?]) …

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Gregory (and others who have not seen the deck plans): Let me explain why I say I "probably" need to move the stairs to turn them into cargo lifts. In this image of Deck Eight, the Turbolift vertical shaft & corridor is right next to the cargo transporter. (The cargo hold is off the top of the screen.) It would be cumbersome at best to maneuver the forklift to where the stairwell is right now. If I swap the stairs & V/S and tubrolift, that would allow ready access from the cargo area to the stairs (now lifts).

The headache come in trying to figure out what to do with the service area (tray return & scullery) on Deck seven. That whole area gets blown up. Okay, so it's not a nuke, but it will be a hand-grenade. It's not insurmountable, but it's not a snap of the fingers, either. On the other hand, the new cargo lifts will make resupplying the food pantry easier.

~~~~~~~~~

Stewart, Unless SVC tells me to change them, I made the T-bombs 150-cm diameter, and the dummies 100-cm diameter.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 08:01 pm: Edit

Some one needs to make a note for others working on different deck plans. Most haven't been done yet, but the fed frigate was. I do not remember if cargo or drone reload issues came up.

In the case of the free trader and APT deck plans, it may not be an issue. The shuttles and the cargo area were fairly close.

Having the shuttle bay on deck 1 & 2 and the cargo bay on decks 7 & 8 just made it obvious in the Callahan class POL.

Just suggesting having the ability to rapidly load drone racks or transfer cargo is going to be an issue on other combat ship designs.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 08:18 pm: Edit

Did some back of the envelope number running and came up with -

A Type-I drone is 3m long and .2m high/wide for a volume of .157 m3 (without considering the fins), with Packing material this come to .2 m3 (oversized but useable). For comparison, the Type-VI drone comes out to .07 m3 (~1.8x.15x.15) rounding to .1 m3.

With this a T-bomb fills a volume of .8 m3 (4 CgP) which could be 1x1x.8 or Garth's 1.5x1.5x.356 TBomb (might be a bit smaller as the .8 could includes some packing/containing material) …

2m corridors can handle that!

Oh, 50 CgP comes out to 10 m3 (just add maneuvering room!)!

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 09:03 pm: Edit

If there's an overhead gantry crane rail running along the ceiling on the corridors, the corridors can be much smaller. A 55-gal drum hanging from a chain doesn't need near as much room to maneuver as a pallet jack, nor does the floor need to be flat (bulkheads and firedoors, oh my!).

By Steve Cain (Stevecain) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 09:17 pm: Edit

I have most of a page to catch up on...skimming doesn't count in my books. But lets also remember that the folks that crew these things are clever. So, if a package is too big to move, and Transporter Mate 53rd class Steve Cain decides that he wants to transport something from cargo to the shuttle bay, eventually he will decide that the ship's XO S.P.P. was wrong and that it can be done. He will then proceed to transport it out into space, and then transport it into the shuttle bay. He will then find himself up before a Captain's Mast after the XO finally gets the paper work done and said Transporter Mate is pulled out of the agonizer.....a month later.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 10:17 pm: Edit

Steve Cain, humor aside (😉),
It's already been established that in SFBs, cargo is moved according to the published rules.

While Garth, no doubt, wishes this subject had never come up.... the fact is, it has.

SPP made the point about moving a crated medium Bomber from cargo hold to shuttle bay is the most extreme example to date, but one that the published rules seem to say is both valid and legal.

Imagine you are the pilot assigned to fly that bomber once it's delivered to its PDU. Do you really want to see it cut into sections by some junior enlisted man who will not be putting his life on the line when it's time to fly into combat?

There is a reason that fighters, (as well as tanks, trucks, trailers, transporter artillery, APC etc) bombers shuttles are shipped in crates. Part of that is that they are mass production items, and reliability is directly related to the number of parts needed to install at delivery.

Otherwise, it would just be cheaper to load a bin wth spare parts and an instruction manual.

The other reason is readiness. Bringing a crated fighter or shuttle to active status is easier if most of the parts come preassembled.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 11:08 pm: Edit

SPP: Regarding your example of an HTS moving a medium bomber, please see rule (G25.135) first sentence "Shuttles cannot carry other shuttles as cargo."

Okay, so, yes, the example of an HTS carrying ground vehicles is still valid.


Garth L. Getgen

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, December 05, 2019 - 12:01 am: Edit

It's more then 4 cargo point packets allowed …

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Thursday, December 05, 2019 - 12:35 am: Edit

HTS has a special exemption, per rules (G25.135) and (R1.F5A).


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, December 05, 2019 - 05:27 am: Edit

When Garth's plans get to the top of my stack this will be worked out.