I think most of the controversy is human artists who don't want to lose their jobs to machines. I can understand that, but I gotta ask when an artist ever did something as good as those two pictures.

By Rob Kalbach (Smilinatthegorn) on Saturday, June 07, 2025 - 02:31 pm: Edit

The AIs are trained on something, so I would think humans somewhere have produced pictures of similar quality. (Dropping the images into Google reverse image search yields some similar human results amidst a sea of AI product.) The humans whose works were consumed by AI training probably never gave permission - or received compensation - for that arrangement.

Sometimes an AI is used to straight-up mimic the style of a human source. For example, the numerous AI mimics of Studio Ghibii's art style. (Again, unauthorized by SG.) A human outfit doing the same thing, at the same scale, would not be viewed as favorably as the bevy of AI generators.

One (literally, one person) could employ various AI tools to create, say, OpenSFB or somesuch clone of an ADB line. Use AI to rewrite the rules, slap new generic names on everything, recompose the SSDs, generate some trite backgrounds for the renamed empires, populate the thing with art "in the style of" various ADB (or whoever) artists, and so forth. Then maybe, in a burst of creativity, this person could also vibecode some software for assigning point values to custom ships, informed, of course, by the vast array of official ships. And bots for solo play, using the tactics manual, term papers, "victory at" articles, etc. And they could give it all away, if they didn't want to charge for it. Maybe that's why they did it in the first place... it's expensive to buy everything. But the game is a classic, and deserves to be played by more people, and it would be wrong for those people to have to pirate the ADB products...

I'd find that detestable, even if SFB hasn't been my favorite game since I was introduced to it nearly 40 years ago. Even if it wasn't SFB that made me a gamer. But especially since I know there are people behind the SFU who did all the real work. ADB, and dedicated fans in collaboration, giving their effort, imagination, and time. People who gave me a universe to play in that has generated cherished memories of past friends, and endless background details to pore over time and again. I've been following such folks on these boards as a lurker for who knows how long. I do worry what a clone like that could do to ADB's income. And would there be any type or amount of recognition from the cloner that would sit well with you?

I do worry that AI could ultimately cap our creativity, if not our drive and spirit. And I don't know about Skynet, but I do get a little bit of a freakout when I read Microsoft et al increasingly relying on AI to write code. I mean, Windows is already vulnerable enough. And then there's vegetative electron microscopy (Sabine Hossenfelder recently had a YT video on this)...

Sorry for rambling and/or sounding paranoid. Maybe we'll get it all figured out long before anything too crazy happens. To me, it does feel a little bit out of control already; more like we hope we end up somewhere good than deliberately steering ourselves there.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, June 09, 2025 - 09:26 am: Edit

I know a lot about AI. The vast majority of the patents I write are to advances in various types of AI models.

The problem with AI is not just artists losing their jobs. Within 5-10 years AI will be able to do nearly *any* human job, even physical activities (when paired with robotics). There could be an existential economic crisis where people are not really able to work because businesses get rid of all but a few employees and everything else is run by AI bots. I'm not just talking about blue collar jobs. I'm a patent attorney and large language models are already almost good enough to draft a patent. I've drafted patents to medical AI bots that diagnose patients and then treat them. AI will do everything faster and better than humans can do.

Ironically, this could result in economic collapse, because people can't work for pay and therefore can't afford to buy goods those AI-run businesses sell.

AI will also transform warfare. The Chinese are leading this area, and have already created "battle bots". While they're not truly viable yet, the pace of AI research is increasing exponentially. It's only a matter of time where we have bots something like the Terminator - though they're likely not going to look like humanoids (likely, drones, dogs, centipedes, etc.)

One of my coworkers is even more into AI than I am. He and I frequently get into debates. I'm in the "AI will lead to a dystopia" camp. He's in the "AI will lead to a utopia" camp. He thinks AI will free humans to pursue their own interests while bots pretty much take care of all our physical needs. I think that's horse hockey, because machines will act according to their programming, and humans will program them to do bad things out of greed, concupiscence, and all the other things selfish people want to do.

The truth is likely somewhere in between. One thing is definitely true: the future will be wildly unpredictable. We're in the midst of a technological revolution that makes the industrial revolution look like nothing.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, June 09, 2025 - 01:21 pm: Edit

An excellent analysis, typical of the work Ted Fay has been doing on the staff. At least, no policy that ADB has or doesn't have will change any of that.

I heard somewhere that the solution to the AI dystopia situation is to tax the bots and spread the money around so that everyone has a living wage, in a world where everything is cheaper because AI does it. I think it would be bad for humanity to remove all motivation to work, succeed, and excel.

One good thing I see is in plastics recycling. It doesn't work now because the human labor cost to read the little triangles and put stuff in the proper bin is too high. AI could do that cheaply and plastic recycling could actually be practical for the first time.

By Randy Green (Hollywood750) on Monday, June 09, 2025 - 03:57 pm: Edit

SVC, I've seen plenty of human art as nice as the 2 images LAR generated (and agree they are very good!). But for works like that, a human would need/want to charge several hundred dollars I believe, if not more. Dependent upon the medium I presume.

Good research, Rob!

And agree with Ted on all of his posts, and I'm in his "horse hockey" camp. Maybe the in-between is "freeing humans to pursue their own interests which primarily is finding a way to pay for food to live on", since all the paying jobs have been taken over by AI.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, June 09, 2025 - 04:17 pm: Edit

I somewhat recall posting an errata item about the way the Skoleans were depicted in Scalewings, back when Captain's Log #50 was published.

Should there be an opportunity to publish a second volume of the Away Team Log anthology, perhaps that could be an opportunity to revise the CL50 story so as to remove any references to the Skoleans being "bird-like", and instead present them as the chameleon-like beings they have more consistently been portrayed as in other SFU publications.

Not least since the concept of bird-like beings with a connection to the Gorns - friendly or otherwise - is already taken up by the Paravians.

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Speaking of which: they too are a species which has been portrayed a number of ways; once with features more akin to Terran birds, and another time with more of a "bird Gorn" vibe, replete with Gorn-like eyes.

I personally prefer the latter interpretation, not least since this links the Paravians more strongly back to their Gorn ancestors.

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As for the broader topic of AI-generated imagery in Star Fleet Universe publications:

For comparison's sake, this topic was raised in an interview with Brent Evans, who at the time was Art Director for the BattleTech franchise. (Brent has since handed the reins over to Marco Mazzoni, who himself was just recently interviewed on Catalyst Game Labs' Tuesday Newsday podcast.)

He noted that CGL's official policy is two-fold.

Firstly: from CGL's perspective, BattleTech is a licenced property - indeed, one which at times has endured many difficulties, not least as regards the infamous "Unseen". From that perspective, they cannot make use of AI imagery in any form, since they are not able to guarantee that the images used to "train" the AI were themselves ones they had full rights to.

And secondly: from a creative standpoint, CGL do not wish to close or pre-empt a venue that would otherwise be open for a human artist, even if they were able to do so otherwise. Indeed, they take a hard line against those who would try to pass an AI-generated image off as their own; such a person would likely never find work for that company again.

Fortunately, the current renaissance for the BT IP means that they are able to reach out to more artists than ever, and to leverage their works more fully than in the past - as seen in recent books like BattleTech Universe and IlKhan's Eyes Only.

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I mention this here since, as is the case for CGL's handling of the BT IP, there might well be licensing concerns in terms of the potential use of AI imagery in an ADB-published product - as well as the creative issue of whether or not a human artist should be denied the opportunity to contribute to this universe, if given the means and opportunity to do so.

I find myself to be more in favour of the CGL approach, though I understand that BT is in a very different place to the SFU at this present time.

That's just my own opinion, however. I leave it to wiser minds to consider these concepts in more detail.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, June 09, 2025 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Thanks, Steve, Randy. Appreciated.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 02:03 am: Edit

More of Lar Bergen's AI work:


LYRAN


KZINTI


ORION DOCTOR IN STAR FLEET

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 02:06 am: Edit

General comments

Lyran: these are supposed to be lynx humanoids and this works. We would need to give it actual art for the medals and badges.

Kzinti: known as tigermen to Klingons, this guy doesn't seem "massive" enough, but he's cool.

Orion Doctor: Something got lost in translation. I told Jean to tell Lar to send an Orion striptease dancer and somehow Lar got word to do a doctor.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 02:08 am: Edit

I asked Lar to try a Seltorian, and he sent several including these. The queen was all wrong, and he sent a king which they don't have, but these seem interesting. I'd have to compare them to published seltorians and we might have to train an AI bot to match existing.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 02:09 am: Edit

I don't remember seltorians having wings, but the AI bot added them anyway.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 08:19 am: Edit

There are pre-existing art samples for Lyran uniforms - be they in Lyran Empire, LDR, or WYN service - in various sources; to include in the GURPS Prime Directive 4th Edition Core Rulebook, in Away Team Log, and on the cover of Captain's Log #15.

In-universe, the faction emblem - a county emblem in the Empire, or the national emblem in the LDR - is prominently displayed in most cases. Although the WYN art is less clear in this regard.

However, there is a question: do "special" Lyran organizations, such as the Fire Squadron (ships sent to the Federation front during the General War) have their own uniforms? And, if so, would they show both the county of origin for the officer or crew-Lyran in question as well as the Fire Squadron emblem, or just the latter only?

As an aside: should a set of "official" uniforms for the Auroran Navy be established at some point, there are Lyrans who show up and serve in that organization also...

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The "Tigerman" shown above seems a bit closer to a "bat-ear" Kzin than a "cat-ear" Kzinti, at least when compared to most samples of SFU art seen to date (such as this one).

One question might be whether or not Kzintis in the Hegemony wear the emblem of their Pentarchal noble on their respective uniforms, akin to how the Lyrans do things; or if those emblems are reserved for certain high-ranking individuals (such as senior officers, and/or for members of the ruling family).

Oh, and that same WYN art noted for the Lyrans above has a Kzinti and a Klingon on it, also.

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The Orion officer appears to be serving in the post-1979 Franchise's Starfleet, rather than the SFU's Star Fleet: her uniform is almost directly lifted from Star Trek: Discovery, as is the design of the bridge in the background.

A human artist would be advised of the need to avoid incurring the wrath of Paramount here. No doubt an AI image producer would need to be obliged to do the same also...

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There are certain insectoid species in the SFU which are noted as having wings (such as certain varieties of Hiver) - as well as others which have not been formally stated as having wings or not (such as certain sub-castes of Maghadim).

None of the five castes of Seltorian are stated to have wings, however.

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Speaking of the Auroran Navy:

I might suggest they start off by using more or less the same uniforms as seen in Star Fleet - albeit with the Auroran star, as seen on on their national flag, in place of the Star Fleet arrowhead.

With a bit of room for later variations, perhaps inspired by the various Orion, Klingon, Lyran, ISC, and Mæsron influences added to the Federal Republic over time.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 08:38 am: Edit

I am not saying "this is the new look for X" just "isn't AI freaking cool?"

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 10:22 am: Edit

AI is freaking cool.

In a related matter, I use AI all the time for my writing project (I and my coauthor should be published fantasy authors by Christmas).

When I run into writers block (like describing something) or if I'm not satisfied with my own description, I'll put a prompt into Gemini or Copilot. I'll get a good description back nearly instantly.

The output text is not what I want, not really. But invariably the AI uses words or ideas that I can then take and manipulate into my own text.

The resultant descriptive text is better than what I would have drafted entirely on my own.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 10:49 am: Edit

Incidentally, the Lyran is my favorite. Seems to capture their spirit nicely.

Agree with SVC's Kzinti assessment.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 04:01 pm: Edit

I suspect that if ADB decides to "go AI" that we'll have to have Simone do a bunch of work training the bot.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Leanna thinks that the Lyran is the best (it's how Odin looks when he hasn't been fed in two whole hours), and warns "there better not be any stripper art."

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Rob K: than you for the warm thoughts. When people ask me why I spent my life making poor wages as a game publisher when I could have made three times as much using my registered engineer license, I point to comments like yours. There were so many times that this SFU thing was on the verge of death and I just refused to let it go. Even now, as I near the end of my term of office, I won't sell this place to just anybody with money; I want someone who can continue the legacy.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 06:09 pm: Edit

I'll back up Rob K on those sentiments.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 06:27 pm: Edit

Yea, the Lyrans looks good, thou the shoulders argue that this is a class-A (along with the hardware) …

As for the Kzinti, he might be one of the smart types that survived …

As for the Doctor, the word 'poached' seems well received …

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, June 10, 2025 - 09:15 pm: Edit

I do have a an orion merc in a 'cat' suit. I will send it to SVC to see what he thinks LOL

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, June 11, 2025 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Lar, happy to receive anything you want to send any time. (I haven't seen the Orion yet.) We probably won't put it in a product without getting Simone to teach the bot what SFU means (and checking on the bot training infringement issue), but it is fascinating work! Can it to a TOS Klingon? For that matter, do anything anyone suggests, anything you feel inspired to do, anything that amuses anyone.

By Randy Green (Hollywood750) on Wednesday, June 11, 2025 - 03:44 pm: Edit

Lar, how long does it take to do one of these images? The lead Seltorian, for example?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, June 12, 2025 - 10:21 am: Edit

I don't know how much effort Lar puts into the prompt engineering, but generating an image takes only a few seconds. Much of the time is spent by you typing in the prompt to the AI, followed by a few seconds of processing.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, June 13, 2025 - 12:27 pm: Edit

Indeed it takes minutes to design a prompt, sometimes the AI will ask a clarifying question about it (but I have improved in what its looking for). Then it take between 3-8 min to generate the image. When I first started I got lucky some of the time and they end up fairly close but more often when it appeared realized what could have better defined.

Also it is difficult to generate images where you mention star fleet as it will assume star trek and toss in a fed chevron-shield somewhere in the image typically on the uniform or in the bridge equipment somewhere. I had some good luck with Gorn and some randomized animal conversions not part of the universe but still cool.

It struggles hard trying to create a hydran from the descriptions I give it but it did create some cool looks when I tried to generate a hydran king from a D&D image of an Otyugh. The thing its struggles with the most is 3 legs.

I will drop a few more for Steve to look at and if they pass mustard potentially pass along.