Archive through May 24, 2004
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Archive through May 24, 2004
Chris, I would expect POL's to participate in a base assault only in emergency situations...and normally expect fleet units to handle the job as needed.
Emergencies are just that, unexpected situations that leave little time for a national mobilization and redeployment of major fleet units.
a surprise attack that the fleet was not mobilized to deal with would IMO qualify...
The FLG's and the POL's are the forces on the spot and will have to do the best they can.
in the case of a dallas cop, he (and his brother officers) will do the best they can and prioritize depending on the circumstances.
Your point is exactly wrong in that in the midst of a Klingon invasion the military civilian and police forces in "the cross hairs" will not engage in business as usual...they will make the appropriate decisions based on the tactical situation and either defend or retreat as the commander on the spot deems necessary.
I would not expect the dallas cop to spend time writing parking tickets and arresting jay walkers while the city is beset by rioters and arsonists.
Chris, your priorities are WAY off base on this.
Jeff, the Police forces would be vaporized before they could mobilize into any sort of unit by the invasion. Anyone remaining would get out of dodge to the nearest friendly base to check in and get marching orders. THey are not going to form up and go on a mission against the Klingons.
Your theory about the Federation Police army is WAY off base here.
Star Bases are encountered with 4-6 POLs and BATs are encountered with 1-2 POLs ( Check out R1.1C &1.2D ).
I'ld say POLs can and do opperate from time to time in large numbers ( such as fighting a Planet Killer during a time when the real warships are busy at war ) ( say 4-8 POLs is large numbers ) but that doesn't mean the POLs can somehow be deputised into the "real" navy and go one the offensive.
If the POLs fight defensively the enemy will know that their enemy is throwning in all he has.
If the POLs fight offensively the enemy will descide that "if you're willing to use non-military personnel to fight your war " then "all civilians have just been rendered legitimate targets".
The various governments don't want to push their enemies over that line as they know that even if it does cause them to win, they'll get annihilated in the next war because they got a BAD REP for PLAYING DIRTY.
..... Besides which PRIATES would JUST LOVE to see POLs join a fleet and sail off...fleets can't move around as quietly as POLs ( the Klingon Inteligence force is watching the fleet but not the POLs ) and the Klingons will gladly "sell" intel' on the Fed Fleet to Pirate as doing so draws real warships off the frontline and opens the Federation to invasion...so the prirates save money by not running their own spying system the day the POLs "Fleet-up"...money which goes to buy more PIRATE ships that do more PIRACY.
MJC, in the case of the SB and BATS, I've always assumed that those were the ships operating in the area that arrived in time to help defend the base. Thus the numbers are more a reflection of the POL density than any intrinsic operating pattern. Sure, one (or even two, maybe three for an SB) might have been at the base as part of their duties (escorting a convoy through, dropping off a prisoner, getting resupplied, etc). But even here it wasn't because they were necessarily operating together, it was just the "three cop cars at the donut shop" phenomena.
I don't recall if the Feds operated multi ship convoy escort forces. I know the Klingons did reguarly with the G2. The pirate hunting CV campaign in module J has a number of police scenarios. Although remember they're in an area with VERY active pirates.
I guess I wonder if there isn't an additional 20% POL that are "transferred" around for reinforcemetns (plus, presumably some x% that are undergoing major matenance).
I wasn't saying R1.2C and R1.1D weren't anything more than the donut shop phenominon but if bandits choose to "knock over" said donut shop when there are three cop cars outside, they won't leave such that one "police cruiser load" of cops at a time is opperating.
Thus POL can and do opperae from time to time in numbers up to and including one more than the command limit of a POL ( 3 command rating plus controling ship +1 under the "at a pinch" rule for 5 POLs in a scenaio ( more if a CA or CL leave a fleet to opperate as a Police Command cruiser )). Although one could expect a POL Command Corvette to be built by some Police forces to provide; a higher command rating, extra firepower when dealing with heavier pirate ships ( some of those pirate ships are hardcore ) and more BPs with better riot control equipment to opperate as SWAT/RIOT-CONTROL forces (Read HWS and Commandoes ) in case civil disturbances break out on planets that haven't got enough police to deal with the problem.
Well, at a base the base is the Command unit so there is no over limit thing happening there.
Police ships do get involved with fleet operations in time of war, but not many of them. check out the F&E module Combined Operations, along with Advanced Operations for the details
MJC: Those are the ones assigned to the AREA of that base; they are NEVER used to defend the base and are hardly circling the base waiting for an invasion. They're off doing police stuff 500 or 1000 parsecs away.
Cfant wrote:
"the Police forces would be vaporized before they could mobilize into any sort of unit by the invasion."
Yet we have MJC's post saying "Star Bases are encountered with 4-6 POLs and BATs are encountered with 1-2 POLs ( Check out R1.1C &1.2D )"
(ignoring some of MJC's more incendiary comments!) we are still left with a contradiction between Cfants "POL ARMY" dies in vain POV while Star Fleet Battles Rules indicate that POL's do infact participate in the base defense mission.
Unless SVC decides that SFB rules R1.1C and R1.20 are in error, we should have no choice but to recognize that POL's rally on the BATS and Starbase defense during invasions.
How to reflect this in F&E is the challenge.
We already know that Fed POL's COMPOT factor (IIRC) are 2-3 (2 Offensive and 3 Defense) and we know that a starbase has up to 6 POL's and BATS 1 to 3.
We also know that any POL's that participate in base defense are still police controled and not federalized or part of the police ships mobilized for war duty.
I would suggest that a rule be written that adds the civilian POL's to the base defenses ON THE TURN the base is attacked only, and if the POL's survive, the counter is removed as the POL's return to the police role. That way there is no inflation of hulls available to the Fed player, but F&E remains true to the intent of Star Fleet Battles Rules.
Jeff, please read the post by SVC just above yours. The POL's refered too by (R1.1C) and (R1.2D) are the POL's assigned to the bases. Not POL's sitting at the base.
Jeff, POLs are already written into the game in two ways.
What Ken said.
I thought SVC was being very clear.
There are rules in SFB that assign a number police ships to bases. These ships are not intended to be part of the bases defense force, but are intended to patrol the area of space assigned to the base, which is usually several hexes on the strategic SFU/F&E map. One police ship per map hex is normal but may vary.
While administratively they may be assigned to a base, operationally they have their own specific duties and report to the Police chain of command, which is different than the Star Fleet chain of command. As far as defending a base goes, they are not powerful enough to make a difference or survive first contact with the enemy; they are not designed for that.
I'm beginning to think this would make an excellent article for MPC, if anyone wants to take a crack at it. Just read SVC's posts above three times first and don't contradict anything in them!
Police ships
All races use police ships to control traffic, enforce laws, prevent piracy, provide local search and rescue, ensure the collection of tarriffs, enforce trade bans and rules.
As a general rule of thumb, every hex on the F&E map within a race's territory has one POL in it. [These include the ships mentioned in SFB rules (R1.1C) and (R1.2D), rules which never implied that such police ships were tied to the starbase with a five-(sfb)-hex chain as part of its permanent defense force.] Most planets on the map also have a police ship or two of their own (plus a national guard ship of their own, but we aren't talking about NGs now). In some areas (close to the core of each race), extra police ships are permanently assigned. Other extra police ships are reassigned from time to time to areas regarded as problematic. As a rule of thumb, each province has a police flagship. Big planets also have one of their own. A dozen or two colony planets in every hex also have one or two or three police skiffs for local duties in the system. Police carriers also exist but these tend to be one for every two-four provinces and are assigned as the threat requires.
It would be uncommon for two or three police ships to be in the same area, but this is sometimes done due to local emergencies. Normally, the response would be the police ship from that hex, the police flagship from that province, an extra police ship (or police carrier) if there is one not assigned a specific hex, and perhaps a police ship or two borrowed for a few days from the next hex.
In wartime, the police have important duties to perform, few of which have anything to do with being added to an operational fleet as a small frigate. They provide additional information, rescue key assets, shepherd civilian ships out of the way of the invasion, and manage the flow of civilian traffic into and out of war zones. Most of the police ships are trying to get away from the enemy invasion (while herding the civilians before them). After the front stabilizes, police ships are used to protect supply routes and convoys to some extent, but there are still going to be pirates out there who have to be contained or the economic losses will be severe. A few can be called up (at an economic cost) and a few more built for military duties.
SVC: "rules which never implied that such police ships were tied to the starbase" .... does that mean that each SB does have a POL assigned, too?? In addition to the one-per-(F&E)hex POL on patrol, that is??
Or are you saying that the nearest 4 or 5 POLs in the surrounding hexes "belong" to the SB, and would be recalled back to the base during an attack??
Garth L. Getgen
Garth: Neither one. The 4 or 5 POLs mentioned in the rule are the one-per-hex ships run by the police commander who has an office on the starbase. They most certainly would NOT be recalled "to protect the base" if the base was attacked as they have more important things to do shepherding civilians out of the line of fire and would be pretty much useless in a fleet battle and would count against command limits and displace bigger real warships anyway.
I apologize for being dense here, but would I be right to assume that on any given day one (or perhaps more) POL would be found at the SB? They aren't here to protect the base. They're here because their convoy is at the base, or they're dropping a prisoner off or reprovisioning themselves or any number of other police missions.
I'm not talking wartime here, just a random day in a campaign.
If the a base were surprised (not an SB, but a BATS--there are a few scenarios in this class), I'm assuming the POL would help defend the base (assuming there was a command slot for it). In particular I'm thinking of the Ghostlighters story and scenario (CL10?) which has a pair of POL caught at a BATS during the Klingon invasion (I believe there is mention that one had the bad luck to pull in for R&R the day before).
Perhaps once a month... It's so rare I wouldn't bother, and the ship would be on "downtime" and even less use than usual.
Do police ships run on "Shifts?"
I mean, if you have one POL in each hex...is it permenantly in the hex for 30 or 40 years of service? how often does it flush the Ion charges in the engines? does it get a anual overhaul? what happens when the ship is away getting food, fuel and replacements? how does it replace the drones and shuttles lost inservice?
if you have a province with 6 hexes and 6 POL's and a FLG...does the FLG "sub" for a POL while it goes to the nearest base for Food fuel and fodder(personnel i mean!)...does it take a month for the POL to stock up so the entire force rotates in 180 days? what about the FLG? does it get a substitute 1 every 6 months?
I know in the Real world, for each ship deployed you need 3 in the fleet to hand the rotation between Overhaul, getting ready to deploy, deploy, return from deployment and then get ready for the overhaul.
if there is not a means to "stager" the needs to refuel and overhaul the ships...then up to 1/3 of the 250 POL's will be off station and not pursuing the normal duties of the hex's POL ship.
same with the FLG's. 1 in 3 will need to be off station at anygiven time or problems will occur.
Current US Navy doctrine is 3 ships in the fleet to keep one ship in the Med/Gulf/Pacific. This is a matter of distance. With the new system of flying a replacement crew to the ship, we have found that five ships keep four on station.
Also, police ships get their food and ammunition delivered to a base in their hex, so there is no transit time wasted. There are more police ships than hexes, and while some are down for overhaul, the numbers given are the number on active duty. In wartime, maintenance gets hurried and skimped and the number "down" is reduced, but the number of jobs in increased.
Steve, have you looked at theGurps Travler materials (I meant the original background information) where there were possibly 3 levels of naval service...the Imperial Navy, the Sector (or Subsector) Navy and the Planetary Navy? (and depending o the planet perhaps a wet navy on the planet) In addition to the Scout service?
Only asking since it appears from the discussions that there are distinct demarcations of responsibility in the Federation.
Not even considering the Star Fleet, there is a large decentralized Fed POL force, a FLG group (administrative?) now it appears there is a small POL support base in every hex of the Federation as well as individual planets having IIRC 1-3 skiffs each.
Each additional Bureau of administration could provide rich Role playing opportunity.
Are all of these various police "units" coordinated in some way...or is it decentralized by province with the Captain of the FLG acting as regional government...or do you have some other scheme up your sleave?!? 
Jeff: Yes, I know all that. Wasn't it obvious? Don't forget the Federation marshals service.
Just wanted to establish the point...because the consequences of Cfants POV would be a "game killer" in both F&E and Gurps PD.
First, if chris is right that 100% (or nearly that) of all POL's and support units die in each invasion of the federation territory...then the replacement of 50 POL's and 10 FLG alone is 150+50 =200 EP (assuming the replacement cost of each new construction POL is 3 ep...and the FE replacement cost of each FLG is also 3 EP.
not to mention the replacement cost of each POL's support base (or whatever pod they use) is atleast 1 ep...thats anaother 50 EP that the Fed would have to come up with to get the territory back into shape economically.
Granted this is not the case in F&E but this or something like it will need to be done in Gurps PD on a retail basis.
Plus, if there are 20 small planets or colonies in each hex...and there are 50 hexes..that means 1,000 planets need to be rescued and restablished ...and that means new commercial platforms or SAMs or PDU's etc...the total cost to the fed economy would be astronomical...
and then the cost of the 1-3 skiffs for each planet...and then the replacement marshalls the Chris killed off.
All I am suggesting is that some percentage of planets and systems survive in normal circumstances during an invasion instead of Cfants blanket assumption that 100% dies automatically....
the Fed economy will absorb the costs in some manner outside of the F&E game system...but the idea that the klingons willl indiscriminately destroy all mining and agricuture stations, every Complatform and SAM in the territory seems far fetched...I mean we'er not looking at a Roman vs Carthaginian punic war scortched earth scenario here.
some percentage of the POLS andFLGs and Skiffs will survive, as will the support platorms and some planets/colonies.
just suggesting that there should be some way to reflect the benefit of having extra POL's available to reinforce the non invaded territory...and having more FLG's POLS and skiffs guarding the Federation should result in less pirate loses and in greater casualties amoung the coalition raiding ships.
Quote:They provide additional information, rescue key assets, shepherd civilian ships out of the way of the invasion, and manage the flow of civilian traffic into and out of war zones.
Here's a wild idea.
If the POLs are shepherding civilian vessels away from a base that is undergoing invasion, should they be under the same DEFENSIVE FIRE restrictions as hospital ships?
Jeff, it would do nothing of the kind in F&E or GURPS:PD.
Police in F&E are two fold.
1. Temporary call up to fight a raider, pirate or otherwise. After the combat, the Police ship goes back to police duties.
2. Calling up a Police ship to guard your territory, use it on a planet ot just to try and keep supply open (guarding convoys) When they are damaged, they go back to Police duties.
POLs that stand up to fight the Klingon navy will be destroyed. That is what I said. In response to your thought that the POLs would try to form up and take the fight to the enemy.
I imagine that there would be heavy losses, especially from the surprise attack the Klingons launched, probably like 50%. And any stations not big enough to capture are going to be destroyed, lest the Klingons leave units in there SLOC areas.
But what does this have to do with F&E or GURPS?
the klingons would destroy military strongpoints, but why would they destroy minign stations? they want them in operation to add to the klingon economy (even though they are relativly inefficiant in doing so)
remember that capturing territory provides you with income. the invader will destroy anyone who shoots at them, but do you really think the lone commercial platform with no minefield or supporting ships is going to fire against the klingon main fleet elements that wander by?
for crying out loud, even a puny E4 is enough to hurt you, never mind that if you kill the E4 the 50-ship fleet a hex or two over will take the time to fly by and vaporize you as an example to others
BATS and SB are military strongpoints as well as centers of commerce so they will go down, but normal commercial facilities will not be bothered much