Well, I would imagine that small stations will simply be taken, and the crews either sent back to POW camps, or released or perhaps forced to work and guarded.

Major installations around a BATS or SB are going to go down with the base, at least some of them anyway. I would imagine that is why it takes 2 years to get income from a planet, but you get income from sectors almost immediately.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 12:51 am: Edit

This topic seems to be filled with bad guesses and people flying off the handle over bad guesses.

Nobody said that all police ships would be destroyed in an invasion. Certainly, those that stand and fight would (which is why they don't do that). Certainly, some percentage of those which are in the invaded areas will get bagged (say, 50% just for round numbers). But remember that the initial invasion shock is going to cover only 10% of the total police ships, so while you lose a few (war is heck) you don't replace the entire police for after every war, and nobody said you did.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:03 am: Edit

Well, as one of the guilty parties (indeed, perhaps THE guilty party) I apologize for "flying off the handle".

My motivation was to get the clarification that SVC posted, to get the 50% number of lost POL/FLG units and address the GURPS/F&E issues:

Specifically, GURPS PD could very well have a POL retreating in the face of the invasion...sort of a "retreat form Chosin Reservoir" ala Korean war episode where Marine, army and N.G. units retreating, (under fire) from the Chinese invasion. Lots of variables, misunderstandings, bad guesses and stress in combat conditions.

by the same token, civilians "caught in the war" in a freigter or skiff or Free Trader (Traitor?!?) would find it challenging...and mostlikely (IMO) would encounter one or more 'Refugee POL's' forced away from the assigned 'beat'.

In F&E context, there are Klingon occupied Federation territory F&E hexes (up to 3,000 parsecs deep, in to the heart of the Federation) then up to 50 POL's could be affected(read as displaced) then depending on SVC post...50% get "bagged" during the initial assault (which conveniently coincides with the 10% of total POL's in the fleet, which again, is estimated as 250 so 10% equals 25 dead POLS...nice little confirmation of the numbers using 2 different methods to arrive at the same estimate.

so, 25 POLs and 5-6 FLG refugees make it back to the federation lines after the Klingon invasion.

There are already several people opposed to adding these ships to the Fed order of battle. IMO the Federation would not scrap the ships, and if not added to the Star Fleet, there should be a use for such ships...suggestions for their use could include:

1. assign the police ships to internal Fed territory for commerce protection...effectively doubling the police units already assigned. possible benefit to the federation would include higher tax revenues from better enforcement, fewer pirate losses due to more police ships "on the beat" and lower insurance rates and fewer property losses from having more 'Search and Rescue' units available to help distressed civilians. Not sure what economic effect that would have, but it should be measurable in some way.

2. the pol's and FLG's could be available to assign to military or civilian convoys in F&E. perhaps a new convoy counter that has 6 ships instead of the normal 3 civilian freighters...same cost to produce but has higher attack and defense COMPOT to represent the present of the POL's in the escort (plus the added cargo boxes in the POLS themselves!! it is only 6 more boxes but that is a 6% increase over the original counters.)

3. organize adhoc police "Pin Forces"...the POLs and FLG's dont participate in combat operations perse, but do attempt to intercept coalition forces from penetrating further into the Federation...and then use the standard F&E rules to disengage. Similar to the mission the US Calvary units had in NATO on the border between East and West Germany (ie the Fulda Gap) not intended to stop the Soviet invasion of Germany outright but to tie up the warsaw pact forces early and prevent them from acheiving all of their objectives(and to buy time for the rest of the NATO forces to deploy). In F&E, the effect of using displaced POL's would make it more difficult for the invader to reach the home worlds of the "invadee". Kzinti space is so compact that the effect is IMO negligible, but given the volume of the Federation and the number of POLs andFLG's available would have a large effect in UFP space.

(side note: in Kzinti terms, there are what? (havent looked yet) 25 hexes involved in the Coalition invasion...so 12 or so Kzinti Police frigates would be displaced...enough to reinforce 4 convoys, or the same number of "mini pin forces" given the size of the Coalition forces involved it wouldnt change the outcome of the attack, but might have a tactical implication for Home world defense. Also note, that such use of police refugees would benefit the Klingons later in the war when time comes for the Federation to attack the Klingon Capital.)

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:21 am: Edit

Jeff, they are cops. they would be added to othe beats of other provinces.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:23 am: Edit

This is hardly the place to discuss F&E rules, but the RPG aspects (besides being obvious) are valid.

Your math is all wet. You wanted to get "the number" and then used it incorrectly. Remember that the odds of getting bagged are higher in the first invasion pulse (the border provinces) and much lower later. So if one assumes that the Klingons occupied 50 spots, one could not assume 25 dead pols, as only some of those would be caught in the first wave. Those more than 3 hexes from the border would have a very high chance of escape.

The rules of F&E already provide the maximum number of police ships which can be used and what they can be used for, so while you are right that they could be assigned to the three missions you mentioned, you don't get to use (i.e., put on the map) all of the displaced police ships for this; most of them are absorbed into the existing hexes which now need more protection (i.e., not on the map, not under player control).

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 11:10 am: Edit

Keep in mind, the bases shown on the map are NOT the only bases, just the BS/BATS. There are lots of smaller bases of every different type. Logistics support for the big items may require visiting a BATS every year or two, but normal logistics can be supported without them. Or the parts can be delivered by a freighter, so the POL never goes near the base.

I could easily see an ad hoc Police Logistics Support ship role, being filled by a FT or any other small civilian ship. (Yet another mission for your players with a ship!)

Heck, to give you a real-world example: back when I was in the Navy, one of the ships I was on (a destroyer) was homeported in Yokosuka, Japan. About once a month, we'd run across the fishing fleet at sea. We'd stop and they'd pull alongside, and we'd buy up the catch of the day right off their boats, still fresh. I can remember some lobster roasts cooked with 450 pound steam ... yum!

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 11:44 am: Edit

Jeff, I read SVC to mean 50% of the 10% get bagged. There's ~250 POLs, so 25 have to run from the invasion, but only half make it. Ergo, it's closer to a dozen dead Cutters, and by the same logic, two or three Flagships lost. But you got the general idea now.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Garth, Steve & every body, thanks I think I get it now.

Thank you for your patience!

Different sub-topic:

What about demilitarized and surplus police equipment?

in the Real world, police departments hold public auctions for selling confiscated cars boats planes...not to mention computers, homes, business properties etc. They also sell obsolete and surplus equipment like police cruisers striped of the special equipment.

Is there a possiblity that in GURPS PD federation civilians book, there could be a section on such items? (great adventure hook!)

Half the fun might just getting the hull that one purchased as scrap prices into flyable condition.

Heck, trying to get the parts for the Photon torpedo ought to be an adventure by itself!

not to mention the Orion Light raider that police forces seized in deep space and stripped of its cloak, warp engines and control spaces...having the players circumvent the government inspectors should be a bit of a challenge.

Again, just a thought.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 02:49 pm: Edit

I could see civilian ships being resold, but not pirate designs -- EVER. Those would be turned into target drones.

By Mark Norman (Mnorman) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 04:57 pm: Edit

yes, but what is an advanced civilian ship and what is a pirate ship?
In at least one Captains log there is mention of a Salvage cruiser carrying out legal activities (OK, this was just a cover for that particular ship, but there would probably be others that are actually carrying out legal activities, such as high risk/high gain surveying)
I could see both Salvage Cruisers and Slavers being sold on (but no raiders, those are pure combat craft).
However, if I was in the intelligence service and the fleet got hold of an intact Orion craft (of any type, even a Slaver/Viking or a free traitor), I would campaign for it to be transfered for my departments use, as it can creat plausible deniability, as well as being usedful for covert insertions and extractions, as it would not be recognisable of one of my nations ships, and if it had a cloak all the better.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 05:42 pm: Edit

You know, In the Real world, the Air Freight Company 'Flying Tigers' inc was supposed to have been founded by veterans of the AVG (american Volunteer Group) who flew P40 fighters against the Japanese in China before Pearl Harbor...

Could you see a Orion Pirate Freight Company using Salvage Cruisers to deliver priority cargos in all of known space?how about "specialhandling" by orion Light Raiders (the Drug Runners?!? for high value pharmaceutical deliveries?!?)

How about Armored and Bonded deliveres by Enforcer Inc? (good use for all those CA's the Orions have lying around!)

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 07:29 pm: Edit

I said nothing about advanced civilian ships, if you're referring to my post, Mark. As far as I know, the only ships that would fall into that classification would be civilian ships built with X-technology after the General War. And that would not bear on this discussion.

My definitions: a pirate ship would be an LR, CR, SAL, or some other Orion-built hull; in SFB, these are generally R8 series ships. Civilian ships would be the Free Trader and its variants, large and small Freighters and their variants, APTs, and so forth under SFB section R1.

I don't see Orion (R8) ships ever being sold after being captured. They're pirate ships and have EW, engine doubling, and so forth ... things the authorities would never want a civilian to get their hands on. Nor would a civilian want them, as their ship would be fired on by any port they tried to dock at!

"Commander, we've picked up a ship on long range sensors. They say they're a civilian freighter, but our sensors say that they're an Orion LR." You may safely imagine what the base commander would say next as long as you include the words "Battle stations!"

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 07:40 pm: Edit

Jeff: in the EY period prior to the formation of the Orion Pirates in Y133, I could see precursor companies (Hamilcar, Inc., Penzance Shipping & Freight, etc) operating ships as you surmise. The problem is that the R8 ship classes are not available in the EY period. Maybe there is something for SFB Y2 that might fit the bill, but for now ...

Certainly during ALL periods, the pirate cartels operate civilian ships that are not distinguishable from others. How else would they dispose of captured loot they have no use for? But I do not see anyone buying stuff from an R8 Orion ship, much less letting it into phaser range without firing on it.

"Commander, they say they have a cargo of Gigasaur Max hides they want to sell."

That's an Orion Heavy Cruiser -- why are you even asking me about this, Ensign? Battle stations!"

You guys need to remember that these are pirate ships! It may be cool to speculate on having PCs fly them in your campaign, but sooner or later someone is going to start firing on them.

By Mark Norman (Mnorman) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 02:46 am: Edit

Gary Plana: remember, in at least one CL there is astory where a Klingon ship has orders to protect an Orion ship, and a Federation ship in the same battle recognised that the ship (a salvage Cruiser) has a specific licence to operate in the neutral zone that is endored by both the Federation and Klingon governments.
The real problem with the selling of orion ships to civilians, is that after the purchase, said civilian would probably be appraoched by an Orion Heavy Cruiser and be given an 'offer they can't refuse'.
I think my option 2, give the ship to the intelligence service as a covert insertion ship (especially if it has a cloak) is probably a better idea, expecially as one of the recent proposals board thread was asking for a specific ship for this, so if you do that the answer to such a request could be 'they already have one, it called a Battle Raider'.
Anyway, I wouldn't expect the pirates to used a heavy cruiser on a raid, as, IIRC, R7 mentioned that when one cartel lost it's heavy cruiser, the cartel was absorbed by it's neighbours before the replacement was finished.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 06:58 am: Edit

Captured Orions? Don't they have suicide bombs to avoid such a thing? Sure it happens... but it must be so rare as to be a special case.⁴²

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 11:06 am: Edit

OK, so the standard orion ships wouldnt work in the civilian context...what about the "after market" for overaged POL's?

Insome ways a POL design might work better for RPG'ers than a Free Trader or a skiff...not somuch cargo capacity...but if players have acquired several ships in the course of adventure...they may need a "bouncer" or "Body Guard" type ship for those "high risk areas" they might need to travel to.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 11:30 am: Edit

Captured orion ships are sometimes used by the government intelligence services. One might wonder if, once in a great great while, a government might trade a captured pirate ship to some pirate for something really really important.

POLs tend to be used until they wear out. If still somewhat useful, they might be sold to a planetary government (some of which own POLs). I doubt one would be sold to a bunch of adventurers who would probably rather have a free trader anyway. The trader can land on planets, is more fuel efficient, and better for such things.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 11:31 am: Edit

Foggy memory reminds my of reading that Orion LRs and CRs would sometimes hold legitamete cargo routes, at least early in the Cartel history. At the very least, they would use Free Traitors to carry contracted goods. You're right, of course, that an Orion CA would never be used as such.


Garth L. Getgen

By William F. Hostman (Aramis) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 11:58 am: Edit

The only way pirates can operare, realisically, is to make certain that most of the time, they aren't pirates, but legitimate travellers.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 01:08 pm: Edit

In Federation territory, not all worlds would appear to be members of the Fed council (or associate members)...

Would there be non-aligned worlds that act as "havens" for Orion ships similar to the services the WYN and LDR provided for the orions in their territory?

If the answer is a 'yes' or a modified 'yes' in some form, then I would suggest that not only might standard Orions warships operate in those "non-aligned worlds" but it would provide a logical rendezvous place for the illegal ship types with the semi-legal or legitimate ships...sort of like a "fence" exchanging goods and services to the pirates in exchange for the stolen property seized in pirate operations.

Then the only question remaining to be answered is why Star Fleet tolerates such operations to continue!

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Question:

Would any of the major races in SFU allow carefully vetted groups of civilians (perhaps veterans who have left the Fleet for whatever reason) to operate militarized (or actual military) ships under Letters of Marque and Reprisal, or some analogous concept?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 02:05 pm: Edit

Alan: that's what the national guard is for.

Jeff: such non-member planets exist but are not allowed to have warships.

William: space is very big and they can just stay out of the way. That's why orion ships have stealth coating, a thin hullform, and huge passive receptors on the wings to allow them to tell when somebody is scanning and rotate the ship until the thin (harder to detect) section if facing the sensor.

By William F. Hostman (Aramis) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 10:39 pm: Edit

All those things also make for a great defense against pirates, too...

Now, either a high (cruise) warp sig is detectable a huge distance away, or F&E makes no sense with its reaction movement.

In the source material (ST-TOS, ST-TAS, SFB, F&E), it appears that detecton of vessels is by warp signature; it's not terrifically clear, tho.

The orion advantages would seem to be primarily tactical, not strategic, and unlikely to effect the size and detectability of a warp field.

So, given all the data in print, either the orions "often" do something legitimate with those SLV, LR, and CR ships, or they never go to high warp speeds... Or flight plans are rare (which in itself implies lots of traffic, which is not something that is established elsewhere in publihed materials).

legitimate buisness ALSO makes sense from a pirate's point of view: if you can make a buck clean, you can also smuggle and/or run protection rackets easier. Not to mention, you have someplace to spend those hard won goodies.

Which brings up a whole different question: Just how much traffic IS there?

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 10:46 pm: Edit

William, remember that F&E intentionally ignores concealed/secret movement and ship detection ranges (for excellent playability reasons), so using anything related to F&E for detection is very iffy. The F&E Klingons can see where every single Gorn ship moves...

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 10:53 pm: Edit

William, detecting a ship at strategic ranges is pretty much limited to "Captain, there's a ship at 123 mark 55." You've got to get within tactical ranges to be able to tell any further info, including who built the ship and what class it is.

So not a problem for pirates ...