The Vulcan empire is more logical than allowing sabaturs/muntineers aboard. The Vulcans would find it more logical to ensure the loyalty of any crewmember before allowing them near sensitive equipment.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 06:49 pm: Edit

Yes, for the Vulcan Empire.

I was speaking of the Earth Empire. And yes, there would be one or the other...probably. Maybe RW Fed Territory would be divided in half with Earth and Vulcan on the opposing borders. Could almost see a Ying Yang shape to the border.

Anyway, Vulcan Security would be comprised of every Vulcan stationed on the ship; periodically reading minds to ensure loyalty.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 12:20 am: Edit

The Vulcan's might keep security stations on board. Logically, the benefits in suppressing boarding attempts and the convenience of a place for the telepaths to sleep should outweigh the emotional effects of looking worried about any crewman.

By Mark James Hugh Norman (Mnorman) on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 03:42 am: Edit

I think that the division between the vulcan and humans should be that the humans (and a few others, perhaps the Rigelians and Cygnians (unless they are under Kzinti rule)) should be an active and armed rebellian agianst the oppressive vulcans (they could use either orion ships, or the old CL and the POL).
Of course, they needn't be very romantic rebels, (maybe some of them operate as pure terrorists, or there are cases of atrocities).

By F. Douglas Wall (Knarf) on Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 11:01 pm: Edit

I'm sorry if my reference to a Company store was unclear. It was very common in logging towns (of which there are many in my area) for the logging company (Which owned everything) to resort to some interesting tactics to control their employees. Among these were the payment of employees in "scrip" (money that could only be spent in Company facilities) or extending credit at Company facilities that could only be paid off while you were still employed.

I thought it feasible that avaricous Klingons might resort to similar tactics as a form of controlling their client races. They seem the domineering type, whether by force or finance.

By Jonathan Lang (Dataweaver) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 12:28 am: Edit

I don't see a "Company Store" being a viable SSD box, as it has no combat-related differences from a Hull box.

Be that as it may... It seems that the interest here is to come up with an Alternate Universe empire _other_ than the Klingons who would have need for Security Stations. As I see it, the Klingons have the need for them because they treat the other race(s) in their Empire as second-class citizens, rather than as slaves or equals (as slaves, a subject race wouldn't be permitted the freedom and responsibility of serving on a military vessel; as equals, they wouldn't feel the need to rebel frequently enough to justify security stations).

If we don't go with a Human Empire, the next best candidate would appear to be an AU version of the ISC. Another possibility would be to have a more aggressive Gorn Empire conquer the Paravians early on, before the ties between the races are discovered), and have them treat the Paravians as second-class citizens instead of slaves. The only difficulty then involves explaining why the Paravians didn't freak out when the common ancestry was revealed.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 01:25 am: Edit

you also have the pendin (sp?) that could be occupied by the lyrans, and the caniverions with the lyrans or kzinti

or for that matter combine all of the above, pick either the kzinti or the lyrans to come out on top and put the other three races as subject races

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 02:02 am: Edit

The security station could also included for their Boarding Action impacts if the ship designs are relatively light on the shields.

Or with some of the more fractious/feudal states, the security stations could have uses like preventing an LDR takeover or making sure the nobles work together. The mutiny results might be different, including possible withdrawal or even attacking a ship belonging to an enemy noble within the same Empire. Don't simply reproduce the Klingon clamps on a pressure cooker with different names.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 09:58 pm: Edit

Wasn't there a 'Vulcan Empire' Trek novel? "Killing Time" I think it was. Romulans had gone back in time and assassinated one of the human founders of the Federation, leading the alliance to be formed by the Vulcans instead.

I don't recall if humans were second class citizens, but Kirk, at least, was certainly a problematic officer in this regime.

One could theorize Vulcans would employ something like this. Say, against a Romulan Empire that is much more aggressive much earlier than expected. The Vulcans couldn't wait for the races that would become the Federation to evolve up to the point that they could fight with them, so they just impress those races into menial positions on ship crews.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 10:47 pm: Edit

After reading through this thread (I hadn't known existed), I do have a couple ideas to add:

* Several early Trek novels had hypothesized a Romulan-Klingon conflict that had only ironed out by just before TOS (and was tenuous then). I like that. Suppose the Gorn efforts to sabotage the Romulan warp research failed. Suddenly, you have tactical warp capable cloaking Romulans decades earlier. I think we all know what would happen.

Romulans are a tad on the genocidal/megalomaniac side, so I don't think we'd see the Gorn survive as even a subject race. The Paravians are already extinct, so the Romulans just expand right up into the entirety of Gorn and Paravian space, becoming very powerful (never liked the Gorn anyway - too boring, identical to the ISC or Romulans but without the cloak or PPD)

Romulans don't have the problem with Seltorians they would with Tholians, so their arrival presents no concern. Indeed - here is a thought!

Let's have the Hydran settle throughout the galaxy on gas giant colonies (as suggested earlier) - saturating the democratic Klingon space, anyway. The Seltorians arrive in Hydran space instead of Klingon space, and take over! Hydrans 'old colonies' don't exist - Hydrans must build back a fighting force from what were merely colonies to retake their home.

Thus, democratic Klingons and Romulans have a wider shared borded (we will say the Imperial Feds advanced more coreword - bump the entire center of Federation space up 1 or 2 hexes on the F&E map) that is in constant conflict.

The Vulcans are a logical race that, to fight these incredibly aggressive Romulans much earlier than historically they needed to, are forced make subjects of the would-have-been-Federation races.

Assuming this 'turning point' of the galaxy is pretty late on (Y90 or so), the Klingon Empire will have a very, very powerful military before some rebellion institutes democracy. Given the state of the galaxy, I can't imagine they would scrap their fleet. Imagine (in F&E) a race with the military of the Klingons and the economic power of the Federation. (They get their economic boost by becoming fast friends with the Hydrans and allowing their use of gas worlds. The Lyrans didn't have help from the Klingons in the process of their civil war, so the Hydrans had occupied their southern provinces. Larger Hydran Kingdom + Democratic Klingons = succcess!)

* The state of the galaxy is thus: logical Vulcan Empire vs Democratic Klingons vs powerful Imperial Romulans is the main focus - a three way stalemate instead of the 'Alliance vs Coalition' of historical SFU. Gorn don't exist, or are merely pirates (indeed, maybe the Gorn are the ONLY pirates in their frigates and cruisers - complete with engine doubling - as the Vulcans would hardly allow pirates to start in the Orion sector). Kzinti and Lyrans are allied against the economically and militarily powerful Democratic Klingon and Hydran Alliance (The United Kingdom of Klinshai and Hydrax?), but are NOT friends of the Vulcan Empire.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:33 am: Edit

Xander: What do you see PCs doing in that setting?

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 12:00 pm: Edit

SVC had mentioned a thought earlier - the point of the 'alternate universe' is not necessarily to generate missions but to present another backdrop for missions to be set in.

As such, the answer would be...well, anything. The same thing they do in the regular SFU, just in the alternate. Perhaps the characters got sucked into in through a transporter accident and spend a few adventures investigating the area and trying to get out. (Using Steve's example) Perhaps they have to intentionally go into the parallel universe to pick up a scientists dead in our universe that is alive over there. Perhaps the scattered Hydran remnants in the mirror universe hear of the unified and more powerful Hydrans here, and attempt to enlist their help taking their space back from the Seltorians by sending an 'expedition' to our universe. A group of Romulans from our universe may attempt to travel to this mirror universe to gain some of the secrets and technology the powerful Romulans there must surely have uncovered (or, maybe, a pirate group including a Romulan may be tricked into visiting this alternate universe because said Romulan is working for his government to investigate it without their knowledge).

Depending on who the characters are, there is a world of opportunities - that's the point of fleshing out an entire universe of it.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:35 pm: Edit

I guess what baffles me about this concept is that there by definition must be 999,999,999 alternate realities (or more) so why is any one of them any more valid than any other? If you print them all, it's too much; if you pick one, why THAT one over the others? And a manual that says "you could do so alternate reality stuff" would be one page long and contain only a single sentence.

By Xander Fulton (Dderidex) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:49 pm: Edit

I think Trek has established (pretty clearly) that in their 'world', there is only ONE alternate universe.

Maybe there are more, buy only 'effectively' one - say, it takes some massive change to force a mirror universe to form - that it doesn't happen at every single time a decision could go two ways. The mirror universe with Evil Kirk and Evil Spock was just the most recent split off of our universe, so it was the 'closest' and the one most likely to be able to slide back and forth from.

Another possible thought - maybe no mirror universes exist, that whatever action has multiple outcomes, the one selected is it, no 'alternate universe' spins off with the other choice made.

Instead, 'mirror universes' (like the Evil Kirk/Evil Spock one) are only created by acts of time travel. IE., if you went back in time and killed your mother before you were born, a mirror universe would be created without you in it, but it would have no effect on the universe you came from. (This neatly gets around time paradoxes).

In any case, 'The Mirror Universe' is a concept fairly firmly ingrained on the conscious of Trekies, and I don't think it'd be a bad idea as a cross-over product (the idea proposed early on of having an F&E map for it, SFB ships for it, and a large GPD write-up).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 04:59 pm: Edit

SVC: Briefly first, I would like to say I like Xanders "Alternative Universe from acts of Time Travel". This limits the Universes to an imaginable number at least.

To resopond to your question as to what and why I suggest the this Universe is choses because it is the only one that the SFU has interacted with in some way and the History, Political and Technological data were recieved some how.

What would the Module contain over one page with the words "You can do Alternative Realities"? Well, there is a rich history in the SFU and it would be much fun to play in a Universe that is done willy nilly. A lot of though has to go into the details so there is a logical progession of thing. The Universe given would be an example of a well thought out Alt Real, and would be just as functional as any Adventure Module. Indeed you could ask the same questions "Why here, why this one?" of any adventure. An adventure module consists of the hard work pre-done.

As a result the bulk of the "Alternative Reality Manuel" would be a big Adventure Module. But whats better is that is can include facets of SFB too. Combinations and ship designs not present of designed for SFB can be put to print. How would the Fed design their ships differently if they were a Violently Agressive Empire?

I think that sort of SFB module would indeed be as popular as any non-Historical-SFU-Alpha module. SSJ designs could then become Alternatively-Historical.

Certainly there would only be room for one but the GPD module could provide advice for GMs to create their own. As stated above, this one Alternative Reality is being done because, historically, only one Alt Real was ever contacted and nothing is known of any other universe.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 05:18 pm: Edit

I could see the alternative reality concept as being meaningful, interesting and useful in a formalized sense. If it interacted with the "real" universe (for example, the Darwin incident--I think that was the one with the ship that returned from finding out about the Andros). Thus there is only one (or perhaps a few) "important" alternative realities and they're special because they do/did have an impact on the "real" universe (maybe thats where all sun snakes come from)...

I almost see this more as a SFB and/or F&E product. It gives a chance to try out things in a formal, defined background (for example, using the alternative reality Xander gave, a scenari with a Klingo-Hydran fleet attacking a Federation SCS based fleet).

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 05:27 pm: Edit

The problem with most of these proposals has been that they provide great globs of backstory but no indication of how playing in that specific universe will be interestingly different. Build a universe that is fun and then structure a backstory. The TV episodes that spur this concept spent more effort establishing the conditions at the time of visiting rather than sitting down and spinning out a massive compilation of all the events that preceded.

By Richard Brown (Richardb) on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 06:39 pm: Edit

The diference between writing a TV episode about an alternate universe and a GPD game module for one is that the scriptwriter knows from the outset when the story occurs, a game writer doesn't have that luxury. Some GM's may set adventures in the early years, others in the X ship era, and others during the general war. Each GM will want something slightly diferent from a GPD alternate universe product, especialy if it incudes SSD's.
OTOH if you're looking for what to do with such a setting perhaps a major interacton between the universes could be postulated, perhaps the alternate has been having more trouble with the Andro's than the oficial universe and is sending spy's to figure out how to beat them. Moving further down such a timeline perhaps refugees from the alternate start making a major migration to the official universe (some of the factions being less than peacefull about it) because the Adro's took over completely. There is undoubtedly room for smaller scale interaction earlyer in SFU history as well.

SVC: IIRC About a year ago when this whole Alternate Universe discussion got started you vetoed the whole idea of having manuals for more than one alternate reality, saying that if a book were done you'd only do one reality. Now you say
"why is any one of them any more valid than any other?"
Does this mean that the idea has lost it's apeal?

Perhaps a variation on the Gurps Alternate Earths could be used. Present a breif overview of three or four universes with a bare bones adventure (and advice on customizing for diferent periods) in each of them. Such a product probably couldn't contain the materiel to do GPD, SFB and F&E for each reality, but a strictly GPD product might result in enough customer intrest in one of the realities to publish more materiel for it (It's hapened before with Gurps products Time Travel Adventures more or less spawned Technomancer). Breif overviews of posible alternate realities in future Module Prime's is another way to handle having multiple universes.

By F. Douglas Wall (Knarf) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 02:30 am: Edit

Or another, possibly simpler option would be to produce one book focusing on one major alternate universe. This book also contains a section (Chapter? series of sidebars?) on potential other alternates to muck around in.

Also, are we doing alternate history, with a distinct point of divergence from the SFU, or just a parallel universe, infinitely close, but never quite touching?

Most of the discussion here seems to indicate a parallel.

By Peter Miller (Thegolem) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 10:59 am: Edit

I think the Alternative Reality Manual would work best if it was planned out as GURPS Time Travel is (and someone may have mentioned this before).

For those who don't have it, if I recall correctly (at work right now without access to the book), G:TT maps out three complete time travel campaigns but also gives ideas and thoughts on other ones the GM could produce himself.

I would think an Alternative Reality manual would work best this way. Ideas as to how to interact with this other universe (crossover campaigns, what allows PCs to travel between universes, etc.), and a full description of the 'official' alternative universe (with adventure seeds) as well as 'nuggets' giving ideas for other universes.

Well, at least that's some ramblings from me...

By Robert Gilson (Bobcat) on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 11:55 pm: Edit

Steve Kenson was writing the Through a Glass Darkly: the Mirror Universe for the old Star Trek game which went bust. Anyway he posted it on his web site.

http://members.aol.com/talonstudio/treks/

This might be helpful for running your own Mirror Universe.

By F. Douglas Wall (Knarf) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 12:30 am: Edit

I don;t know how much we're going for a "mirror" universe and how much it will simply be an alternate. Especially considering the old Star Trek episode, I think that a simple "mirror" universe, no matter how well done, would be seen as cliche. If this discussion is leading to an actual printed product, I think that product should be taken seriously, so a more interesting divergence should probably be created.

By William F. Hostman (Aramis) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 11:53 pm: Edit

A single, resonant Mirror universe, where the setting is clearly a "dark reflection" would be a great play setting. Make it detailed enough to run, but not detailed enough to straight-jacket. Make certain it's different enough to make a differnece in play style..

Maybe two or three good ones... in lesser detail, but...

A "Generic Alternate SFUs" kind of thing... well it's so broad, and GPD is already so broad a setting, that anything more is likely to be a "Not useable out of the box; some assembly required" kind of thing.

By F. Douglas Wall (Knarf) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 01:31 am: Edit

I definitely agree. If we're going to do this, it should present 1 "core" alternate reality. Present a detailed alternate timeline and a breif overview as to each government or region as they appear in this universe.

If we're looking at doing multiple realities, 1 shoukld be "core," with the others as suggestions or further examples. There's so much potential to a product like this that it's easy to get lost in all of it. That makes discipline very important

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 02:22 am: Edit

Alternate reality books have tended to suffer from a number of pitfalls. One major problem is that the book includes large amounts of background that the game degenerates into a recitation of all the divergences. The author finds it much more interesting than the players in the campaign. With the SFU, many of the changes will occur in places that the PC group can not reach. Alterations to the Hydrans will not matter to a campaign set near the Gorns. Discovering 80% of the material included can not be used lowers the resultant value.

I prefer smaller focused alternate universes. Make changes to the universe but only describe the effects in the region the PCs will be in. Include multiple local regions that are described in their alternate form with possible suggested actions that can be done only in that specific subset of an alternate universe. Some of these changes could be expected to all occur in the same (rather disjointed) alternate universe but probably not all. Join that with introductory material that suggests methods for either creating an alternate universe or adjusting everything for the GM that wants a modified SFU for use in all games.