Steve,

By the way, I presume the reason Alpha Centauri was picked as a race to get ships for Y1 was because they are full members. Y1 provides ships for all full members, except for the Cygnans (who were later covered in CL).

To me, the real boo-boo is F&E which doesn't give a full member of the Federation at least a minor planet. If they are so unimportant as to not get an on-map (or in-capital) planet, why are they full members?

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 09:28 am: Edit

Politics?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 09:41 am: Edit

Note Z.C. was an earthling and merely retired to AC so it is possible he brought warp to them.

At four lightyears away it's not inconceivable that a sublight vessel (sleeper ship maybe) made the trip and arrived in the early part of the history of SFB. Since the timeline IIRC says warp travel was developed in Y4 an AC ship might have made contact when its radio communicator was within range three, four, five or more years travel at sublight speed before it arrived.

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 10:40 am: Edit

Perhaps they have had a high technology base but moved most of it off planet for environmental reasons, due to the environmental damage they suffered due to their industrial revolution. So they had their own space fleet and orbital dock and construction facilities. When star fleet offered to assume the burden of the space fleet, they offloaded most of their space manufacturing, and focused on an agrarian economy with earth assuming the manufacturing/production needs, thereby increasing Earth’s economic growth.
In this way they were one of the foundering races, but perhaps a junior member just making it in to the big league, and when they off loaded their space manufacturing they slipped back a bit economical, but not technologically, while the other major worlds surged forward economically. Now they are not an economic giant like the SOL or Vulcan systems, but remain a high tech breadbasket.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 10:49 am: Edit

They are a member planet because the contribute people and things perhaps not substantial to building ships for Star Fleet but substantial in other ways. Also by the benefit of being a founding memeber. Back then their presense in the budding Federation was much greater.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:07 am: Edit

I had three people this morning asking for the exclusive contract to write the true story of the alpha centaurans. I don't have time to deal with it now, but anybody who wants to propose something can send me a one page synopsis on 1-2 March. Anything received before that date will be discarded unread. Protect your ideas by NOT posting them here.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:56 am: Edit

Does that mean we can attempt to poison other people's ideas by posting our bad ideas here? If so, I have this idea that in A.D. 2101 a war began with the Centaurans, and their universal translators didn't work that well, so when they captured our facilities on Mars and the Moon, they said...

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 12:25 pm: Edit

MikeM,

Reason why a full member might not get a minor planet in F+E.

It doesn't produce enough war materials for the game, yet produces enough non-war materials or people for the Federation (ie entertainment, food, civilian products).

It "supports" the planets which contribute more (ie a Major 5EP planet).

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 12:33 pm: Edit

Basically, when we did F&E, we picked a number of planets and said "that is what balances the game".

Only later did we name some of them.

We didn't name all of them until Chuck did his map.

Arguably, when Chuck sent in the first version of the map with AC on it, we should have just changed the GPD text in the fourth edition. (I guess we still could, but then Chuck's map would be wrong.)

GPD4e will go to press in a few days, no more than two weeks. When it does, we'll lock in forever whether AC was or was not a major war material producer. We could make Chuck's map wrong and give AC its status back; while it's not in the earth-sol system it is close enough to be the last minor planet there. Or we could change Y1 and they don't get any ships. Or we could continue trying to deal with this mess.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 12:37 pm: Edit

For what its worth, I vote for "while it's not in the earth-sol system it is close enough to be the last minor planet there." It also makes AC more consistent with the PD Federation book.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Remember that the PD1 Fed book wasn't done by ADB and that most of that book is in the same bin as Supplement #2.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 12:47 pm: Edit

The point and there is one is this....

1. If we don't change the "not a major economic player" line in GPD4e, it never ever changes.

2. We have at most 2 weeks to change it.

The choices are:

A. Leave GPD4e, explain Y1 somehow, Chuck's map is fine.

B. Leave GPD4e, change Y1, Chucks' map is fine.

C. Change GPD4e, leave Y1 as is with no explanation, Chuck's map is wrong (because I told him to ditch AC).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 01:14 pm: Edit

A or B

Say the ships came from a forign source now lost or that they were the result of an infuencial but small group on AC whos relevence died out when the Federation was formed.

And that the ships AC did have were a major drain on the society.

I plant this idea in the open because I have more than enough projects to work on.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 02:02 pm: Edit

I would prefer it to be one of the planets in the Earth grouping (i.e. C).

Please don't pick B.

If C is too unpalatible, I will definitely work on an explanation for A.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 02:10 pm: Edit

AC went the way of "Let others do it for cheaper", and not keep a terrestial shipbuilding for ourselves.

Willing to let their industries falter after the formation of the Federation, reasoning the Humans were willing to invest the money+manpower to build the Federation shipyards in the Terran systems.

They just weren't interested in keep domestic military production, they possibly kept the civilian ship market for themselves.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 03:31 pm: Edit

There were probably a lot of protests in the AC shipbuilding industry regarding "outsourcing".

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 03:39 pm: Edit

FWIW, I say A or B.

Pleasedon'tmess with GPD4e!!!!!

Treat it like a newly discovered erata for Y1 and fix Y1 at the next printing.

AND (if you could) tell Chuck he did a great job. (who knows what greater and bigger projects Chuck would tackle next, if given the right encouragement ? ! ? ! ? )

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 03:41 pm: Edit

There won't be a next printing of Y1 for a decade and I don't know of another race to assign those ships to.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Or releif, having had mostly personell serving more out of duty than real desire.

As I see it the AC men aren't well suited for shipbuilding and the Women would rather command or serve on a ship than build one.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Maybe the AC were concerned about Eco-reasons and didn't mind "offing" the shipbuilding to the "human" planets, for them to clean up later.

((Snooty attitude coming into focus))

Then inventions 20yrs later made the "cleanup" very easy (ie specialed transportors that could break down toxic stuff) then they weren't in the position to become a major military player anymore.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 03:57 pm: Edit

Maybe the Orions made "an offer the AC couldn't refuse" for the orbital shipyards?

I mean, the Orions had to get the components they sold to the WYN and the LDR from somewhere?!? (talking about the Orion ship yard facilities in the WYN and LDR systems). I certainly don't think the Orions sold off the systems in the Orion system... and the "Hidden" production facilities need to stay hidden... and given the cost in EP's in F&E for replacement shipyards... I just don't see the Orions being so benvelent as "Giving" anything away for less than 'cost+profit'.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Jeff, if you look closely almost all (except the DN I believe) ALL Orion ships are aerodynamic, thus they don't need a shipyard facility in space to be built, they are built groundside.

Thus they only need a have "assembly" areas to put all the pieces together (wings, engines, body constructed), they don't need an entire production facility. The individual pieces are constructed elsewhere in tiny factories.

By Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 04:14 pm: Edit

Actually A seems like the best and easiest option to me.
It also provides for a little bit of history that can be put into Y2 and GURPS Feds showing the military decline of AC in the late Early Years to the early Middle Years Period.

Meaning Both Y1 and GURPS PD4e are correct. Mabey a note in the Racial Template about this decline can help to smooth things over.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 04:29 pm: Edit

I'd say A

IIRC AC was settled via sublight ships and without warp earth and AC are a LOOOONG way away from each other

even with NTW (F&E speed 3) they are very close togeather, but you need to have a fair number of ships before it's really useful to normal people.

it takes a long time for warp to leave the experimental stage and become routine, it takes even longer for a civilian fleet of ships to be built and for people to depend on them for routine matters.

these facts give pleanty of time for AC to have built it's own ships at some time in the past, but still not have military shipbuilding facilities or a large amount of economic clout in the GW era.

just picking out of thin air, how much does Rhode Island contribute to the US economy? how about to the US military? if you were making an economic/military map of the US would you put anything in Rhode Island? but at the time of the founding of the US it was a significant factor.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 05:25 pm: Edit

How about the ACs, in the years before first contact, were extremely paranoid about being invaded by a larger power and devoted a huge percentage of their economy to building starships.

But after the formation of the Federation, and with close cooperation with the humans, this was no longer necessary and they were able to cut back on military spending, investing more in agriculture, consumer goods, and raising the standard of living, while the Federation as a whole took over the major defense duties, first in cooperation between the AC military and the Terran military, and then with the formation of the United Star Fleet.

By the General War era, AC no longer has a major warship shipyard, and their agricultural and consumer goods production is "abstracted" into Sol's production in FandE terms.