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Determining shield hits over a Turn break

 
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Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:47 pm    Post subject: Determining shield hits over a Turn break Reply with quote

The situation:

After moving during Impulse #8, two ships were 2 hexes apart and both were in each other's FA arc, but both were also along split shield boundaries. Both ships fired. Ship A could take the fire through either shield #1 or shield #6. Ship B could take the fire through either shield #1 or shield #2. Ship A took the fire through shield #1.

Both ships plotted speed 8 for the next Turn and both moved 1 hex straight ahead during Impulse #1. This put them in the same hex with Ship A facing in direction A and Ship B facing in direction C. Both ships fired.

The question:

Since firing arcs and shield hits of ships in the same hex are to be determined by where the ships were prior to entering that hex, would that mean that both ships could elect to take the fire on either of the two shields bordered by the split boundary from the previous Turn? Can they change which shield is now hit, or does each ship have to take the fire through the same shield they took it through before they entered the same hex?

We had this happen today. I ruled that each ship could take the fire through whichever shield they wanted. It worked out better for one than the other, but each player had the same option.

What is the "official" word on this?
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junior
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do both ships have the same turn mode? If so, then I think you handled things properly. Hexes are huge, and if ships have that general facing relative to each other, then it's a simple matter to adjust the ship's heading very slightly to bring a new shield to bear.

If both ships did not have the same turn mode, then one ship would have moved before the other did. This would put the ships in adjacent hexes, and at that point it's impossible to have the shield boundary issue. The facing that resulted from the two ships being adjacent to each other is the facing that I would use when the two ships ended up in the same hex.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would have used the same ruling that was used the previous Impulse and consider it a split shield issue. his let's the target choose the shield (and yes, I would think that it could indeed be a different shield than the one chosen during the previous impulse).

As Junior pointed out, compared to the size of the ships themselves, the hexes are huge and the targetted ship could have maneuvered enough to insure the same (or a different) shield was brought to bear.

Remember, this answer is unofficial and YMMV.
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MikePowers
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that junior has it correct. If one ship moved "first", then there is no issue, because that ship entered the hex before the other. If both ships moved exactly simultaneously, then it's still a split-shield situation.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the input, guys.

Perhaps a little clarification is in order. Each ship only had to move 1 hex for both of them to be in the same hex, and each ship only moved 1 hex during that next Impulse. Therefore, there wasn't any other position for them to be in before they moved in together.

I remember seeing a discussion about firing opportunities of ships that were in the same hex somewhere else and, if memory serves, the ruling was that it didn't matter which one moved first according to turn mode. The only thing that mattered was the fact that they had a particular firing position in the hex before they merged. Like I say, though, I may not be remembering it correctly.

I agree that it "seems" like a ship with a better turn mode should have an advantage in this type of situation. Sure seems as if that other ruling negated that, though...
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Mike
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, I hate to keep coming up with these weird situations. It seems like every time I post one, we get wrapped up in several messages of discussion about it.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to recall a similar ruling:

That who moved first doesn't matter - part of the simplification of Fed Comm is that only the final positions at time of firing matter.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
I remember seeing a discussion about firing opportunities of ships that were in the same hex somewhere else and, if memory serves, the ruling was that it didn't matter which one moved first according to turn mode. The only thing that mattered was the fact that they had a particular firing position in the hex before they merged. Like I say, though, I may not be remembering it correctly.


I am pretty sure that is correct. (Kind of a sad admission from the guy who probably made the ruling ...) I will have to dig a little to make sure, but I think it is right.

If I remember right, the reason that it doesn't matter who has movement precidence is because (3C6d) says that you check based on the last sub-pulse. Since you are checking on the previous sub-pulse, then if both ships move on this sub-pulse, who moved first within the sub-pulse doesn't really matter.

So, yes, you are in a situation where you are still "split-shield", which means that (3C6c) will still apply, even though both ships are in the same hex. It is kinda odd, but I think that is correct.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And to follow up on that...

Now we have established that both ships are still in the "split shield" situation, even though they are in the same hex.

Okay, so the question is whether the ships can choose a shield different from the one they chose to receive fire through during the previous Impulse. From what I'm reading here, it seems that they can choose whichever of the two on the split boundary they want from one Impulse to the other.

This presented an interesting situation. In the game yesterday, I was playing the Klingon frigate and had 16 boxes on my #6 and 18 remaining on my #1. He had to move straight ahead to fulfill his turn mode (he was a newbie and we weren't using sideslips or HETs), so I figured I'd take the weapons he had remaining on my #6, then move ahead at the same time he did on the next Impulse and enter the same hex. Then I could take any other fire on my #1. It worked and he learned a valuable lesson from the experience.
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MikePowers
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
...so the question is whether the ships can choose a shield different from the one they chose to receive fire through during the previous Impulse. From what I'm reading here, it seems that they can choose whichever of the two on the split boundary they want from one Impulse to the other.
Yes, that's correct. As far as I know, the chosen shield can change from Impulse to Impulse--although not from step to step. For example, if you choose a shield in the Offensive Fire step and I drop that shield with weapons fire, you can't choose a different shield in the Launch step to keep me from sending in hit-and-run raids.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikePowers wrote:
Mike wrote:
...so the question is whether the ships can choose a shield different from the one they chose to receive fire through during the previous Impulse. From what I'm reading here, it seems that they can choose whichever of the two on the split boundary they want from one Impulse to the other.
Yes, that's correct. As far as I know, the chosen shield can change from Impulse to Impulse--although not from step to step. For example, if you choose a shield in the Offensive Fire step and I drop that shield with weapons fire, you can't choose a different shield in the Launch step to keep me from sending in hit-and-run raids.


Correct and correct.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, now here was another one of those rare (?) situations that should probably be recorded for inclusion in some sort of "Nitpicky and Rare Cases" addendum.

Mike West, aren't you compiling such a file?
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if I have that exact list, but I do keep track of questions and, except for the simple stuff, do save it for use in Communique Q&As.

Anything I have to "kick up" to Steve is an automatic inclusion. Smile
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