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ESG questions
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MikePowers
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:52 pm    Post subject: ESG questions Reply with quote

(edit 6/3/08 9 PM PDT, changed topic)

1) If a ship uses ESG in Defense Burst or Offensive Burst mode, do Hellbores fired at that ship automatically hit?

2) It appears that if a ship is fired on by multiple Hellbores and uses ESG in Anti-Hellbore mode, it selects specific Hellbore shots to be affected by that mode; these Hellbore shots automatically hit and have their damage reduced. Do other Hellbore shots fired at the ship automatically hit (with no damage reduction)?


Last edited by MikePowers on Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am kicking both of these up. My unconfirmed answers are:

1) No. Hellbores only autohit when an ESG is used in anti-hellbore mode.

2) If a ship uses an ESG (or more than one ESG) in anti-hellbore mode, all hellbores fired at that ship in that impulse will autohit. How the damage reduction is applied will depend on how the fire is declared.

Again, this is my understanding. I am sending both of these on to Steve for confirmation or correction.
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MikePowers
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
2) If a ship uses an ESG (or more than one ESG) in anti-hellbore mode, all hellbores fired at that ship in that impulse will autohit. How the damage reduction is applied will depend on how the fire is declared.
This might not work out, because some Hellbore shots may have already been resolved as misses by the time I decide to use an Anti-Hellbore burst.

One thing to note is (4K3f), which states that all Hellbore shots from a single ship are combined.

So it's probably the most straightforward to say that an Anti-Hellbore ESG burst is declared against a specific ship's Hellbore fire, and does not affect other ships' fire on that Impulse. A bit unrealistic, but it works well enough that I doubt anyone but true purists would be offended (and true purists are playing SFB anyway.)
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MikePowers
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some new questions:

1) How many times can I activate an ESG in a single Impulse? That is, could I fire a one-point Defensive Burst, a one-point Offensive Burst, and an Anti-Hellbore Burst all in the same Impulse? (5N2b allows multiple activations per turn, but doesn't discuss per Impulse.)

2) Follow-Up: If I can activate an ESG multiple times, can I activate it in the same mode multiple times? For example, could I use multiple Anti-Hellbore Bursts? (to deal with the Hellbore fire from several ships, for example.) Could I fire multiple Offensive Bursts from the same ESG in a single Impulse? (Assuming I had some strange reason to want to do that.)

(I feel that the answer to 1&2 should be "No, an ESG can only operate in one mode in any Impulse. However, an ESG used in Anti-Hellbore Mode can emit multiple bursts in an Impulse to respond to the fire of each Hellbore attack.")

3) (5N2c) and (5N2e) do not mention Evasive Maneuvers; (5N2d) does. Is it intended that ESG can emit Defensive Bursts (and Anti-Hellbore Bursts) even when the ship is using Evasive Maneuvers? If so, this means that Lyrans can deal with Seeking Weapons even when using Evasive Maneuvers, something no other race can do.

(If this is the designers' intent, then that's cool; I like the idea of races with unique capabilities. I just wanted to confirm that this was actually the case.)
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike,

You are probably right on the initial anti-hellbore issue, and I agree with your solution for your answer for the first two questions of the latest set of questions.

As for the last question, let me look at that some more. I may not be able to fully answer until tomorrow night.
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MikePowers
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you get anywhere with this one?
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defurusu
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I ask for a clarification on the timing aspect of an ESG's anti-Hellbore mode?

To be precise: is the decision made after all Direct Fire is announced, or is it effectively part of the me-too 'bidding' process?

(I think I already know the answer, but it seems worth getting confirmation.)

Thanks in advance
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MikePowers
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the way this thread is going, I'd say that Anti-Hellbore Bursts are somewhat like Shield Reinforcement, in that they're a direct response to a specific attack. I don't have to declare that I'm going to use Shield Reinforcement; I just do it after I take damage. Similarly, I don't have to declare that I'm going to use an Anti-Hellbore Burst; I just do it if someone shoots Hellbores at me.
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junior
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I happened to look up the rules last night (in response to this thread). The rules for the anti-Hellbore mode explicitly state that the announcement is made before the dice are rolled to hit.

So I'd be inclined to go with -

Announce that you're resolving Hellbore Fire -> Announce anti-Hellbore Mode ESGs -> Resolve Hellbore Fire results (which automatically hit if the ESG is in anti-Hellbore mode)

I find it slightly amusing the way things work out in FedCom, though. I'd always operated under the assumption that the Hellbore was the outgrowth of a Hydran effort to find a weapon that could knock down ESG fields so that Fusion Beam ships could properly overrun Lyran vessels (not that the "why" of how the Hydrans developed them really matters at this point). And now in FedCom, the only time that a Hellbore can interact with an ESG is when the Lyran player decides to use it for that purpose.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikePowers wrote:
Did you get anywhere with this one?

No. And I likely won't until some time after Origins.

defurusu wrote:
To be precise: is the decision made after all Direct Fire is announced, or is it effectively part of the me-too 'bidding' process?

It is part of the me-too 'bidding' process.

junior wrote:
I'd always operated under the assumption that the Hellbore was the outgrowth of a Hydran effort to find a weapon that could knock down ESG fields so that Fusion Beam ships could properly overrun Lyran vessels

I had always thought the hellbore was an outgrowth of the crappy rear shields on Lyran and Klingon ships. Or, more properly, the shield refits the Klingons and Lyrans were a direct outgrowth of the introduction of the hellbore into the Hydran fleet.
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junior
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Or, more properly, the shield refits the Klingons and Lyrans were a direct outgrowth of the introduction of the hellbore into the Hydran fleet.


I won't argue with this bit. iirc, the Klingon 'B' refits (which strengthened the rear shields) were introduced within a year of the Hellbore being deployed.
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HowieTallGuy
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has the following been officially determined yet? Is this question also being "kicked up"? The rules definatley do not make this issue clear. I played a game tonight and used 2 points in a defensive burst destroying two drones that hit me, then 3 points in an offensive burst.

Quote:
1) How many times can I activate an ESG in a single Impulse? That is, could I fire a one-point Defensive Burst, a one-point Offensive Burst, and an Anti-Hellbore Burst all in the same Impulse? (5N2b allows multiple activations per turn, but doesn't discuss per Impulse.)

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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are the answers I am going with in the email I am sending to Steve. Note that this is what I am writing. If Steve overrules anything, I will make a followup post.

Mike's:
1-1) No. The only thing that makes hellbores auto-hit is use of the EGS's Anti-Hellbore mode.

1-2) All hellbore fire from that specific ship will automatically hit if any of that hellbore fire is countered. [Any other answer leads to needless complexity and confusion. I am not happy with this answer, but it is the easiest.]

2-1) You may only use an ESG in one particular mode in any given impulse.

2-2) Within the chosen mode, it may be activated multiple times within the rules.

2-3) An ESG may not be used in any mode if the ship is using Evasive Maneuvers. (We missed that.)

defurusu's:
It is part of the me-too "bidding" process.

So, if the Dragoon fires 1 hellbore at the Tiger, and the Tiger kicks in a single point of Anti-Hellbore burst, the Dragoon can decide to increase the number of hellbores used (since they will all now auto-hit). At that point, however, the Tiger may also then increase the power allocated to the Anti-Hellbore burst.
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MikePowers
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mike!
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Kang
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two more ESG questions.

1) If an ESG is 'fired' [I always think of it as 'triggered - was that a SFB term?] anyway if an ESG is fired in offensive burst mode, does it firstly destroy any 'impacted' but tractored drones first? To put it another way, if a player has tractored an impacted drone at the end of the defensive fire phase and then uses the ESG offensively in the Direct Fire phase, does it take out the tractored drones before damaging other targets in the hex and then the adjacent hex?

2) Clarification of ESG interactions, Rule (5N2f). Is it saying that if I have an ESG in hex 2215 and another in 2216, used offensively, they will interact even if they destroy targets in their own hexes first - or even without destroying targets in their own hexes? For example, say I decide to use an ESG on a drone in my hex [targeted on another ship, not mine] in the Direct Fire phase, one point of energy is spent and the drone is destroyed with the 4 damage points. Now let's say I have two ships in adjacent hexes, each of which do the same thing to a drone in their own hexes - will the ESGs still interact?

Would it not be better to use the offensive burst procedure and damage things in the same hex first, then if there's any damage points remaining to extend outside the hex, only then should they interact?
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