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Deceleration and initiative

 
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1966
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:58 pm    Post subject: Deceleration and initiative Reply with quote

I'm well aware of the effect of decels and accels on initiative as described in the Briefing #1 rules update.

However I am not sure when the declaration of decel should take place.

In this real-life example, we have a Kzinti FF and a Lyran FF, both with speed 16 and no accels plotted, on sub-pulse 2 of the impulse. Turn mode and speed identical, therefore it's time to write down the moves. So far, so good.

But what if, as my plotted move, I order a decel? Does that not prevent my opponent from doing a me-too decel?

Alternatively, if I order a decel, does that mean that I would move first on that sub-pulse if my opponent elects not to decel?

I guess the essence of it is this: do I have to declare a decel before we get to the written moves stage, and, if, so, what effect does that have on initiative?

Please can I have some advice on which method is correct - if either?
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok few things...

1) According to 2A5 (second paragraph), write down your movement for that sub-pulse only, expose the orders, and execute simultaneously. With that in mind, for that sub-pulse, you and your opponent can only perform the movement actions that are written down so "me too" is not allowed.

2) If you decel, you aren't moving so you would not move first, second, or at all on the sub-pulse in which you decel

3) According to 2A5 (third paragraph), if you have decelerated during any sub-pulse of that impulse, you are now slower than your opponent for the rest of the impulse. What that means is if you want to decel, you would perform your actions along the lines of paragraph 2 (see #1 above), but for the rest of the impulse, your opponent would have the initiative and you would move before him.

Also, if a ship accelerates, they are faster than a ship that did not. I play that if you accelerate and decel, but your opponent did neither, you are faster. The reverse being if you both accel and only you decel, your opponent is faster.

Hope that helps.
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DNordeen wrote:
1) According to 2A5 (second paragraph), write down your movement for that sub-pulse only, expose the orders, and execute simultaneously. With that in mind, for that sub-pulse, you and your opponent can only perform the movement actions that are written down so "me too" is not allowed.


Yes but do you declare the decel before the written stage or during?

DNordeen wrote:
2) If you decel, you aren't moving so you would not move first, second, or at all on the sub-pulse in which you decel


You may not be moving but you could do a turn-in-place. That was how the question cropped up in our game.

DNordeen wrote:
3) According to 2A5 (third paragraph), if you have decelerated during any sub-pulse of that impulse, you are now slower than your opponent for the rest of the impulse. What that means is if you want to decel, you would perform your actions along the lines of paragraph 2 (see #1 above), but for the rest of the impulse, your opponent would have the initiative and you would move before him.


Agreed, and that's fair enough. However for this question we must assume all else is equal i.e. both ships have same speed and accel, so that the decel is the only difference. The ship is only 'slower' for the rest of the impulse after the sub-pulse - or is it?

DNordeen wrote:
Hope that helps.

Well I appreciate the help [thanks! Smile] but I'm not sure I phrased the question enough to communicate what I meant. I hope my further explanations here clarifies things.
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Decel would be part of the written stage. Decel is a movement action that would have to be written down in your orders. If it's not written, you or your opponent would not be able to do it.

Yes, your ship would be slower "after" the impulse.

The only "turn in place" rules I know are HETs and Tactical manuevers.

You cannot perform a Tactical manuever when you decel (you're not stopped). According to 2B2b "a ship which cancels movement cannot perform Tactical Maneuvers" (This statement is between the two examples in 2B2b)

For a HET, 2D2a states that you pay for a HET at the start of any sub-pulse and turn your ship to any new facing immediately, regardless of speed or turn mode. With that in mind, all HETs would take place before any movement during that sub-pulse. If more than one ship used a HET, they would HET in priority order.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DNordeen wrote:

The only "turn in place" rules I know are HETs and Tactical manuevers.

What Kang is speaking of is canceling a scheduled movement point, but turning in place anyway... which is a valid maneuver.
On an impulse that you are scheduled to move, if you intend to turn... you turn then move. If you pay a deceleration point... you have two options:
1) cancel the movement completely
or,
2) turn (as if you intended to turn/move) and then cancel the forward movement but end with a new facing.

And in this case, if the movement was truly simultaneous, then the "turn / cancel forward movement" should be written down and exposed when your opponent exposes their movement plot.

[plug="shameless"]
Or, you could just use a set of djdood's special movement cards and be done with it.
[/plug]
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Mike
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That shameless plug bracketing didn't come through quite right, but I agree wholeheartedly!!!

Those movement cards would be great to have. There may not be many times during a game when they would be needed, but when movement has to be recorded, it can be a real pain.

djdood's cards included every type of movement that could possibly occur, right?

One question I have about the situation described here...Isn't deceleration announced at the start of the sub-pulse? If so, then doesn't that make the other player "faster" automatically (and, therefore, the moving player would have the initiative and move after he sees what the decelerated turning player did)?

Another related question...On a subsequent sub-pulse in which both players are to move, wouldn't they again be treated as equally having initiative and, therefore, be required to write down their moves (or use djdood's neat cards)? Does a deceleration on one sub-pulse affect the status of a player's movement for the remainder of the impulse?
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
That shameless plug bracketing didn't come through quite right, but I agree wholeheartedly!!!


Unfortunately, the phpBB system doesn't recognize my ad-libbed coding, but you get the message.
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically, if you have to resort to written orders anything that your ship is going to do in that sub-pulse (Decel, turn, slip, move, HET, Tactical Manuever, etc.) must be written down and you must follow your written orders to the letter.

For specific items from above...

Quote:
Another related question...On a subsequent sub-pulse in which both players are to move, wouldn't they again be treated as equally having initiative and, therefore, be required to write down their moves (or use djdood's neat cards)? Does a deceleration on one sub-pulse affect the status of a player's movement for the remainder of the impulse?


According to 2A5 (third paragraph), if you have decelerated during any sub-pulse of that impulse, you are now slower than your opponent for the rest of the impulse.

Quote:
One question I have about the situation described here...Isn't deceleration announced at the start of the sub-pulse? If so, then doesn't that make the other player "faster" automatically (and, therefore, the moving player would have the initiative and move after he sees what the decelerated turning player did)?


According to 2B2b "decelerations are paid at the instant in a given sub-pulse when the ship would move" This means that if everything is equal and you have to resort to written orders, Decel must be part of those orders.

Quote:
What Kang is speaking of is canceling a scheduled movement point, but turning in place anyway... which is a valid maneuver.
On an impulse that you are scheduled to move, if you intend to turn... you turn then move. If you pay a deceleration point... you have two options:
1) cancel the movement completely
or,
2) turn (as if you intended to turn/move) and then cancel the forward movement but end with a new facing.


I always forget that the rules allow you to turn and then decel (instant before moving). Once again, if you have to resort to written orders, this would have to be part of those orders in order to do it.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) There's a new product idea, then: DJDood's cards. Could be like Captain's Yeoman or similar....

2) DJDood, have you got a set on file you can post for us, please?!
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DNordeen wrote:
According to 2B2b "decelerations are paid at the instant in a given sub-pulse when the ship would move" This means that if everything is equal and you have to resort to written orders, Decel must be part of those orders.

This makes a lot of sense, and is indeed how we played it on the day.

Mike W, could we please have your confirmation on this one? Tnx!
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DNordeen nailed it perfectly.

I just want to add one clarification. (Not a correction, only a clarification.)

DNordeen wrote:
According to 2A5 (third paragraph), if you have decelerated during any sub-pulse of that impulse, you are now slower than your opponent for the rest of the impulse.


Unless, of course, your opponent decelerated, too. In which case you are still the same speed and must continue using the written orders.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent - thank you, gentlemen Smile
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