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Order of Fire for Hellbores and ESGs

 
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Active Ingredient
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:39 am    Post subject: Order of Fire for Hellbores and ESGs Reply with quote

Which comes first? ESG fire or other fire?

Example: You have a single Phaser 1 available and 4 energy in your ESGs. (16 damage potential for ESGs)

Unfortunately, you have 5 drones coming your way. In the offensive fire phase, can you fire your phaser first, destroying one of the drones, then nuke the other 4 drones wth your 16 ESG damage? Or do you have to do the ESG damage first -- which would leave 4 drones with 1 point each, and then you can only get one of them with your phaser? (leaving 3 drones on the board). Or is it Lyran's choice?

Similar question for the hellbores: When is the determination of "weakest shield"? Assuming the same offensive fire phase, do I fire phasers first, and then the hellbores later in the phase? -- meaning the weakest shield is probably the one just hit with phaser fire.

Or do the hellbores basically fire first -- meaning the weakest shield is determined before any other offensive fire? Or is it Hydran's choice?

Thanks.

AI
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junior
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:51 am    Post subject: Re: Order of Fire for Hellbores and ESGs Reply with quote

Active Ingredient wrote:
Similar question for the hellbores: When is the determination of "weakest shield"? Assuming the same offensive fire phase, do I fire phasers first, and then the hellbores later in the phase? -- meaning the weakest shield is probably the one just hit with phaser fire.

Or do the hellbores basically fire first -- meaning the weakest shield is determined before any other offensive fire? Or is it Hydran's choice?


The weakest shield for hellbore fire is determined at the moment that the dice are rolled. As (4k3f) states, all fire from the same ship that impacts the same shield is treated as a single volley, regardless of whether or not the individual elements of the volley include hellbore or non-hellbore weapons. So if a Hydran Dragoon fires two phaser-1s and four hellbores at a D-7, then the "weakest shield" determination is made based on the shields on the D-7 at the instant that the dice are rolled for that Dragoon's weapons fire. The phaser damage is combined with the damage from the hellbores that is striking the facing shield for purposes of determining shield burn through and how many hits to allocate on the damage chart.

Note that in general this means that if you have a fleet of hellbores all firing on the same impulse at the same ship, then the first ship to fire will determine which shield is the weakest (because it will do the most damage to that shield).
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the phaser/ESG issue, you a looking at the question backwards.

The first step in the Offensive Fire Phase is to assign where the damage goes. Nothing is applied yet, the damage is just assigned. Once all damage has been assigned, it is organized into volleys and allocated volley by volley.

So, the order is irrelevant. Whether the phaser's damage is assigned first, or the ESG's damage is assigned first, the damage has not been allocated, so nothing is damaged until after.

Taking your example, you have 5 drones coming in, you fire a phaser at one of them and discharge four points through your ESG. Regardless of the order you assign the damage, one of the drones will have the phaser damage plus 3 points of ESG damage, three of the drones will have 3 points of ESG damage, and the last drone will have 4 points of ESG damage. The phaser damage and ESG damage on the first drone is combined into a single volley. Then, the five volleys are resolved one at a time, meaning that two of the drones are destroyed, and the remaining three all have a single point of damage left.

In the end, you get the result you didn't want, but for a different reason than you expected.

For the hellbore question, it works the same between two ships.

So, a Dragoon fires two hellbores and two phasers at an undamaged D7. The hellbores (combined) do 22+22 points of damage, and the phasers do 7. The phaser damage is assigned to the facing shield (let's say the #2 shield). Again, the order in which the damage is assigned is irrelevant, as it isn't allocated until after it is all assigned. So, we go to the hellbore damage now. Since shields #2-#6 are all 22 points, the D7 can declare any of them to be the "weakest". He picks the #5, since it is on the opposite side. That shield gets the 22 points of damage for the weakest shield. The other five shields get the other 22 points divided among them. That means three of those shields get 4 points, and two get 5 points. Again, the D7 gets to pick with two get 5 points, let's say #4 and #3.

As a result, the D7 takes the following damage on its various shields, each of which is a separate volley:
#1: 4 points (leaving 26)
#2: 11 points (leaving 11)
#3: 5 points (leaving 17)
#4: 5 points (leaving 17)
#5: 22 points (leaving 0)
#6: 4 points (leaving 1Cool

Finally, each of the six volleys are resolved.

Now, let's suppose that there was also a Knight with the Dragoon, both firing on the D7 in the same impulse. Rule (1E2d) says that each player must resolve all of the fire from one ship before moving on to the next. So, the Hydran player chooses to resolve the Dragoon's fire first, then the Knight's fire. Let's assume the Dragoon's fire is resolved exactly as above, and the Knight fires both of its hellbores.

Only one of the Knight's hellbores hit, doing 11+11 damage. Since the Dragoon's fire has been fully resolved, that means there is an unequivocable weakest shield, the downed #5. The first 11 points of damage are applied against it. Four of the remaining five shields each receive 2 points of damage, and the D7 can chose which is the last shield that receives 3 points of damage (let's say the #1).

That means the D7 again receives six volleys, one through each shield as below:
#1: 3 points of damage (23 remaining)
#2: 2 points of damage (9 remaining)
#3: 2 points of damage (15 remaining)
#4: 2 points of damage (15 remaining)
#5: 11 points of damage (shield down; 11 internals)
#6: 2 points of damage (16 remaining)

At that point, the damage is applied and the 11 internals are allocated.

Does that all help?
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless your in danger of losing the ESG, personally would hold it another impulse until the drones actually impacted ---- This would give you offensive phaser shots at drones without worrying over which order things hit in ---

ESG comes before ADD/Phaser ---




Edited: To correct my badly worded Phaser statement, MJWest stated it much more elequontly -


Last edited by Bolo_MK_XL on Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:
ESG comes before ADD/Phaser ---

Note that this is true for Defensive Fire.

junior was asking about Offensive Direct Fire.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was talking about Defensive Fire ---

Just showing there was an option and where the ESG would fall if he decided to take it ----

I understand, if he is in threat of direct fire that could destroy the ESG, the option would be less viable ---
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, that is true. But does bring up a response that is likely a decent option:

Only fire the phaser during Offensive Fire. Let the drones hit and use the ESG on the remaining drones during the Defensive Fire step of the following impulse.

This, of course, makes a whole host of assumptions (like there are no other drones about to hit), but would order the weapons fire the way you want.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Only fire the phaser during Offensive Fire. Let the drones hit and use the ESG on the remaining drones during the Defensive Fire step of the following impulse.


Basically same I stated, badly worded (edited to be more clearly show what I meant)---

Quote:
assumptions (like there are no other drones about to hit)


Yes, every situation is different -- without further information, can only offer an option with caveats (one of which I stated)
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junior
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
junior was asking about Offensive Direct Fire.


Active Ingredient, actually. My post was a response to his hellbore question.
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Active Ingredient
Lieutenant JG


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for the answers (and additional tips). It's clear now.

AI
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