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HETs and Move Precedence
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Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1954
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davec_24 wrote:
The poker chips thing works fine, but I barely have room for the maps on the table, and so my ship cards end up on people's laps and chair arms rather than on the table, rendering the poker chip treatment somewhat less practical. This is why I use the turn and slip point counters instead. Smile


Yeh, I know - I was just using it as an illustration for the sake of the original question. You lose all your chips when you HET, meaning that it's all reset to zero.
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Davec_24
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough. I think it is easier to see the concept of "reset to zero" when you lose all your poker chips (and so have "zero" left) rather than whacking turn and slip point markers down, though so long as you know that this is the way the rule is meant to be, then the latter method works fine. More space-saving fun for student digs. Smile
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Paul Grogan
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Joined: 20 May 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I have interpreted the rules is that all HET's are done at the start of a sub-pulse, before anything actually moves.

If 2D2a suggests that you can do a HET in a sub-pulse when you arent scheduled to move, I cant see any other time to do them.

Take a D7 moving 16. Can it HET in sub-pulse 1? If so, it could also HET in sub-pulse 3. But what if there are other ships moving 8 and 24. At what point in sub-pulse 3 does it do the HET?

I originally house ruled that for simplicity of play, a HET could only be performed when you are actually about to 'activate' your ship - i.e at the point in the sub-pulse when you are due to move. However, I then found out this was wrong, since sometimes you might need to option to HET right at the start of the impulse.

In retrospect, I'm now reconsidering and thinking of going back to my house rule, since it makes everything a lot easier, and dont think it will really change things that much.
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Davec_24
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been a couple of occasions where I have seen a HET made on an impulse a ship is otherwise not due to move actually win a battle or prevent a ship from total destruction, so I think the ability to be able to HET in *any* sub pulse is important.

As for when you HET, I think the idea is that you HET when you would normally move if you are due to move on that sub-pulse, otherwise in order of speed (and presumbaly turn mode where there is a tie) as is usual in that sub-pulse. So for example, if a ship moving at speed 16 wants to HET in sub-pulse 1, it would do so before anything moving at speed 24+1 or 32 moves, but after any ship which is at speed 0 or 8 (or 8+1) has had a chance to HET.

I do agree though that the way the rulebook describes this is not entirely clear and your interpretation is a valid one. I think the bit where it says "at the start of any movement sub-pulse..." was probably meant more to emphasise that you can do it on any sub-pulse rather than emphasising that HETs occur before other movement, although it does read like this. As it is, I think it is meant to be played as described above (i.e. HETs occur in speed/turn mode order) rather than performing all HETs before any normal movement.
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Paul Grogan
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Joined: 20 May 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davec_24 wrote:
I do agree though that the way the rulebook describes this is not entirely clear


Surprise, Surprise. Seriously, with all the communique's, rules updates, briefing #1, etc, I really wish someone would 'fix' some of the parts of the basic rulebook which need rewording. This is definitely one, but there are others.

Quote:
I think the bit where it says "at the start of any movement sub-pulse..." was probably meant more to emphasise that you can do it on any sub-pulse rather than emphasising that HETs occur before other movement,


As you say, I dont see how "done at the start of a sub-pulse" could be interpreted any other way other than "at the start" - i.e before anything else.

Something else that needs officially re-wording.

Quote:
As it is, I think it is meant to be played as described above (i.e. HETs occur in speed/turn mode order) rather than performing all HETs before any normal movement.


If thats the new official answer, and what is "implied", please can we have this appear in the next rules update in the communique.


So, a ship that is moving 16 which chooses to do a HET in sub-pulse 2 does it after the ships moving 8+1 have moved, but right before they have their movement for sub-pulse 2.

And if they do it in sub-pulse 3, it happens before everyone else moves because *if* the ship *were* to move in that sub-pulse, it would be before the others.

Makes sense, but is very over-complicated.
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Davec_24
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Grogan wrote:
So, a ship that is moving 16 which chooses to do a HET in sub-pulse 2 does it after the ships moving 8+1 have moved, but right before they have their movement for sub-pulse 2.

And if they do it in sub-pulse 3, it happens before everyone else moves because *if* the ship *were* to move in that sub-pulse, it would be before the others.

Makes sense, but is very over-complicated.


I think the idea is that you do a HET at the same time as you would normally move. For example, if two ships are both at speed 16 and have the same turn mode and are due to move that sub-pulse, they would write their movement down (or indicate using cards, etc.) and a HET for either shipwould be written as part of this.

I do agree that this rule needs re-wording, as I don't think you could really be expected to deduce that HETs work as described by Scoutdad and MJW (which is how it *should* work) from how the HET rules are written in the rulebook. I assume that HETs are performed as I see them because this seems to fit into the game system (and has now been confirmed by MJW), but I would probably have a difficult time trying to say "well it is like this, it says so here in the rules" in a way which was entirely convincing. The order of precedence for HETs seems to be done the same as for movement as it is, but this is only implied in the rules by the fact that "normal" movement is done like this.

Perhaps a simpler way of doing the HET order of precedence would be to have a chance for all ships which are not due to move in a given sub-pulse to make a HET simultaneously, before resolving normal movement in the usual order (at which point ships which are due to move may perform a HET as part of their move). This would mean that you would not have speed 16 ships getting to see if ships at speed 8 HET in sub-pulse 1 before deciding for themselves and so on, but it would be simpler and quicker.
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missmatronic
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Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really didnt see that this would be a problem for others as it had been for me, I guess it was a good call on my part to bring it up.
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I had wondered what other people's takes were on this too, and if I was doing it right at all...
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Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya did good, MissMatronic!
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1954
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reviving this thread, but having looked at all these posts I gather that a ship can HET in movement sub-pulse 1 before speed-32 units move [ie plasma].

In this way, a ship can turn a new shield to face an incoming plasma, say from a zero-energy anchor position, before the plasma hits.

Is that correct? If so, put me down for a tactical note Wink
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you can HET in an sub-pulse in which you do not move. Yes, in such a sub-pulse you would perform your HET prior to the plasma impacting.

If you want a command note, you need to write it up and send it in to Steve.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another HET question that came up today.

I read through all the posts in this thread and did not see a direct answer for this.

If a ship does a HET in a sub-pulse in which it is scheduled to move, exactly when can the HET occur?

When that ship is scheduled to move during that sub-pulse, can it:

1. HET first and then move ahead 1 hex?

2. Move ahead 1 hex and then HET?

3. Do either one of these two options?
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Bolo_MK_XL
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Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 787
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When that ship is scheduled to move during that sub-pulse, can it:


1. HET first and then move ahead 1 hex?

Probably needs more clarification:

2A3c Forward Movement: Units move in the direction their facing {Unless moving in reverse}. Units turn to face a new hex before actual movement, so on and so forth ---
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you HET in a sub-pulse in which you also move, the HET replaces your normal turn. So, you turn, then move.
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