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Question on scenario 'Return of the Hood'

 
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Kang
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:17 pm    Post subject: Question on scenario 'Return of the Hood' Reply with quote

In the scenario 'Return of the Hood' in CL#35, there is a speed restriction in Rule (8C6d1)Hood Saucer '......The ship can move no more faster than four hexes per turn in this scenario - count the ship as moving as [sic] speed zero, allowing the Federation player to pay for one [and only one] hex of acceleration per turn, in whichever impulse the player wishes'

Call me pedantic, but can it move four hexes or just one? Is there a misprint somewhere?

And what is the accel cost? That piece of information is important firstly for Hood's own movement, and secondly for tractor-linked move costs.
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on scenario 'Return of the Hood' Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
In the scenario 'Return of the Hood' in CL#35, there is a speed restriction in Rule (8C6d1)Hood Saucer '......The ship can move no more faster than four hexes per turn in this scenario - count the ship as moving as [sic] speed zero, allowing the Federation player to pay for one [and only one] hex of acceleration per turn, in whichever impulse the player wishes'

Call me pedantic, but can it move four hexes or just one? Is there a misprint somewhere?

And what is the accel cost? That piece of information is important firstly for Hood's own movement, and secondly for tractor-linked move costs.


Does it really say "The ship can move no more faster than four hexes per turn in this scenario"? It should probably say either "more" or "faster" and not both. If it does indeed say both, then yes there is a misprint of sorts there. Wink

Perhaps the saucer actually can move 4 hexes per turn, as this is more in line with FC where things are generally faster. In SFB of course this would be a maximum of one hex per turn, so there's an argument for that too. Hmm...
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Kang
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a direct quotation. So it reads as I have written it, which is why it's confusing. Can't see any other clues in the scenario rules.

Yes, the SFB scenario is one hex per turn; it has only impulse engines, and in SFB that matters as I know you know, but others may not Smile
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
It's a direct quotation. So it reads as I have written it, which is why it's confusing.


What I meant was, it should probably read either "The ship can move no more than four hexes per turn" or "The ship can move no faster than four hexes per turn", rather than "The ship can move no more faster than four hexes per turn".

As you say, it has only impulse engines which in SFB would mean a maximum of a single hex of movement each turn. Of course in FC this is not the case, since power is power and if you had to you could use reactors to move at "warp" speeds (i.e. faster than speed 1). Because of this, what is written could reasonably be meant to say that the saucer can move 1 or 4 hexes, but clearly these can't both be correct...
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that, when the scenario was originally written, the saucer was going to be restricted to a single hex of movement. However, after talking with Steve, I was able to convince him (at the time, anyway) that sublight ships had to be allowed to move faster than one hex a turn or they would die badly. The compromise was to settle on a maximum of four hexes a turn.

A sublight ship in Federation Commander may choose a base speed of Stopped or Zero. If at speed Zero, it may be accelerations, but may not buy accelerations in two consecutive impulses. (This gives the maximum speed of four hexes a turn.) Remember that, since it is at speed Zero, it may turn each time it moves (with one minor exception). It may also accelerate and decelerate in the same impulse so it can turn without moving. (Just like warp ships can.)

In SFB, to move under impulse power (i.e. at sublight) requires a full point of energy regardless of the ship's movement cost. I will have to check with Steve to see if that will hold in Federation Commander. (I am just not sure.) However, for the purposes of the Hood scenario, that is how it works. (Fleet scale, of course, would be 1/2 point per hex.)

Yes, that means the Hood pretty much can't move and shoot at the same time.
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Last edited by mjwest on Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Remember that, since it is at speed Zero, it may turn each impulse.


Well, it can turn each time it actually gets to move anyway...

I think being able to accelerate but not twice in any two consecutive impulses is a good compromise. If the saucer were able to move only a single hex per turn, it would die pretty quickly or get plain boring after not very long. I too would have thought that since it is impulse engines as it would be in SFB, that the movement cost is 1 (1/2 in fleet scale).
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OGOPTIMUS
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You beat me to it Kang!

I was just reading this the other day and wanted to ask too.

Should the scenario also be amended to include the effect of Two Eagles the legendary engineer? IIRC, the scenario in CL25 has the Hood producing double the engine power it normally would, or at least more than the 4 of the engines.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davec_24 wrote:
Well, it can turn each time it actually gets to move anyway...

Well, that's what I meant. I should have said it it can turn each time it moves, but, ah well ...

Wait! That is what I said! Wink

OGOPTIMUS wrote:
Should the scenario also be amended to include the effect of Two Eagles the legendary engineer? IIRC, the scenario in CL25 has the Hood producing double the engine power it normally would, or at least more than the 4 of the engines.

Actually, I asked about that at the time. It was decided to just let it ride without adding the LE into the mix.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
A sublight ship in Federation Commander may choose a base speed of Stopped or Zero. If at speed Zero, it may be accelerations, but may not buy accelerations in two consecutive impulses. (This gives the maximum speed of four hexes a turn.) Remember that, since it is at speed Zero, it may turn each time it moves (with one minor exception). It may also accelerate and decelerate in the same impulse so it can turn without moving. (Just like warp ships can.)

Interesting about sublight ships. Should we make this a standard 'scenario rule' [like fast or slow drones] for specific situations?

mjwest wrote:
In SFB, to move under impulse power (i.e. at sublight) requires a full point of energy regardless of the ship's movement cost. I will have to check with Steve to see if that will hold in Federation Commander. (I am just not sure.) However, for the purposes of the Hood scenario, that is how it works. (Fleet scale, of course, would be 1/2 point per hex.)

There is no declared 'scale' in FC, so we should not necessarily be limited by the SFB one-hex rule. Personally I don't think that a saucer should have to pay 1 point per turn to move just because of the SFB impulse legacy. All power is the same in FC, as we know.

However, this gives us the chance to use impulse power more or less like in the TV series. 'Ahead, one quarter impulse' - that's one hex. Four quarters impulse [ie full impulse] moves you four hexes. If impulse engines can propel a ship at just below light speed [c], then full impulse can be taken as about 0.99c. I don't think thetech manuals have full impulse as that; I think it's somewhat less, but to relate it back to SFB then 4 hexes per turn could be lightspeed. Of course we still don't have to define a hex size or a turn length, so the scales stay nice and vague Smile

Funny, but I've never myself accepted/imagined the SFB movement rules explanations of power use and combat speeds.

I always imagine the battle taking place at sublight speeds, like in the movies etc. Disengagement then becomes acceleration to warp [faster-than-light] speeds, at which no combat is possible. The use of warp and impulse power fits nicely because impulse can't really accelerate a ship to just sublight speeds imo, at least not without taking a couple of decades to do so. The impulse point of movement then becomes simply just that little bit extra on top of the sublight movement power from the warp drive, albeit at sublight speeds.

I realise this is heresy Smile but then I've always been a free thinker Wink
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Wait! That is what I said! Wink


Ah, the joys of post-mistake editing... Wink
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
There is no declared 'scale' in FC, so we should not necessarily be limited by the SFB one-hex rule. Personally I don't think that a saucer should have to pay 1 point per turn to move just because of the SFB impulse legacy. All power is the same in FC, as we know.


Well, Vanguard's very cool Jaynz Info site has the sublight rating of the Federation starships of that era to be 0.75c (well, it gives it as 0.75C actually but I assume it's meant to be speed of light [c], not Coulombs [C] or another unit/constant that uses C - could be wrong though).

Kang wrote:
Funny, but I've never myself accepted/imagined the SFB movement rules explanations of power use and combat speeds.


Well I imagine it similarly to how you do, although not at the very short ranges shown in the movies - this is not how it is meant to be imagined and some of the concepts are based on the combat taking place at warp speeds, but however you see it it doesn't affect the game mechanics in FC so it's all good. Smile
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