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Vudar - IPG defensive fire
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject: Vudar - IPG defensive fire Reply with quote

The IPG can be fired in the defensive fire phase. It affects stuff within 2 hexes.

Q. Does it require a seeking weapon impact to be able to fire in the defensive fire phase, which is the usual way of defensive firing. Or can it be declared any impulse. The latter obvioulsy being quite potent as it allows the clearing of fighters at range 2 without a 'me to' fire back by them.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This issue has been raised to Steve. He will answer it when he gets a chance to hash through it.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Related.

Q. Can drones that have impacted ships, or are being tractored by ships be affected by the IPG of seperate ships, in either defensive fire or offensive fire use. Normally defensive fire cannot target drones impacting other vessles, nor can anyone fire at defensively tractored drones, but given the AOE nature (and emphasised wording of 'and every drone') does this apply.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oooo... That's nasty. And if you put the two idea together, doing this on the impulse of impact means that the impacted ship doesn't even have to tractor them.

I have sent that one in, too.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like ..elf has the first Vudar Command note!
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pneumonic81
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Related.

Q. Can drones that have impacted ships, or are being tractored by ships be affected by the IPG of seperate ships, in either defensive fire or offensive fire use. Normally defensive fire cannot target drones impacting other vessles, nor can anyone fire at defensively tractored drones, but given the AOE nature (and emphasised wording of 'and every drone') does this apply.



If this is the case, a Vudar fleet would be virtually impervious to any amount of incoming drone fire. I feel bad for the kitties about now.

Altho I wonder if a counter tactic of stringing out the drones might work. Fire a drone at a time from multiple ships would really get them spaced out. Its a similar tactic I use agianst web snares, but obviosuly the IPG is far more effective then a snare. It would be hard to impliment but it would at least cause several ships to burn up IPG caps to clear out drones, and if its close enough to the next turn, another wave could be prepared forceing the Vudar to slow down to power the IPGs.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the presence of IPGs will force their opponents to spread out their drones as much as possible. You can use drones to mess up the Vudar. It is just really hard.

I think we need to see how they actually work out in combat before we worry if they are unbalanced or not. Remember, to a certain extent, only half their functionality made the translation over into FC. (Then again, their "ion energy" requirements when out the window.) So, if they are not unbalanced in SFB, I don't really see them being terribly unbalanced in FC.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't tested them, but my first impressions, ..

I don't think either ability would be overly gamebreaking. I'm unsure about the defenseive fire thing, as no one else that I can think of can defensive fire without the impacted drone trigger, and even then it only protects yourself. I think the IPG should be the same purely for game flow consistency rather than any game balance concern.

If they can use defensive fire when ever they want:

The fact that fighters might get clobbered at range 2 with no attack back is not that huge a deal. Stingers can still hurt at range 3, and other races fighters (in BOM?) would presumably have longer range weapons.

The ability to kill drones that you normally can't attack (impacted or tractor) is the more interesting one. Out of interest does the ESG rule cover that scenario, using offensive burst next to a friendly ship to kill any tractored drones on it? I can't see it in the main ESG rule an haven't checked the communiques. The IPG and ESG should use the same ruling for this IMO. Although the ESG has no possibilty of defensive firing on behalf of other ships, if the IPG can do so I would say its 'proxy' defensive fire should work the same as againt tractored drones (whatever that ends up as) just to keep everything simple.


As to countering IPG, I think it is reasonably clear that the usual stack of drones/fighters is not going to work. IPG is only really efficient against stacks, so stringing out these targets will force them into using the IPG inefficiently if at all. That may open up other tactics for them due to the drones/fighters being strung out, but that is likely better than just watching everything go pooof..

It'll probably be quite a while before I get to try them, but looking forward to giving them a go (or playing against them).
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A one-point hit from an IPG will make ALL drones in the area of effect guaranteed phaser-3 kills. With small numbers of drones incoming, it's probably more power efficient to dink the drones with the IPG and finish them off with phaser-3s.

For a guaranteed kill:
One drone: 1xphaser-1 or 2xphaser-3, 1 point of power
Two drones: 2xphaser-1, or 1-point ion pulse and 2xp-3, two points of power
Three drones: 1-point ion pulse, 3xp-3, 2.5 points of power
Four drones: 1-point ion pulse, 4xp-3, 3 points of power
Five or more drones: 4-point ion pulse, 4 points of power

Note that in many cases, the ion pulse doesn't even need to come from the ship that the drones are targetted on, letting big ships (with lots of power to spare and many IPGs) protect other ships from large drone strikes.
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missmatronic
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats a good one Terry,

I wod have kept that one to yourself! I really think the IPG is fantastic since it can often guarantee the Vudar brush aside drone swarms like a hyperactive kid killing gimp flies with a swatter! Every point emitted in a burst damages ALL ELIGABLE UNITS 1 : 1 regardless of the amount in the area of effect. That drains the combat potential of Klingons and Kzintis in one lovely display of dazzling fireworks!

Say you're someone like me, who is just starting to win about 1 out of 4 matches against a guy with 28 years of SFB experience whose forte is Kzinti and Klingons. He is the drone race ace and our core game group alpha captain. He coordinates drones like a Blue Angel show. All these fancy tactics can be reduced to jack squat with simple power management and timing on the part of a Vudar. And the more proficient the drone chucker is, the more depleted his method of negotiating the Vudar enounter. The balance of power is severely upset. Picture Spidey fighting the Goblin, and mr parker made a neat little gadget that defused the fiend's pumpkin bombs. Big difference.

See, a smooth operator can employ drones as a sort of shield that absorbs return strikes as well as threatens the target. The IPG diminsishes the drone storm surfing menace. The Phiranas are floating and the Big bad Gator has to face all the strikes that would otherwise be neutralized by the herd. The favorable damage ratio is no longer assured for space bikers and poor wittle putty tats!

Drone Tactics . . . Denied! Let the bullies of the west border sweat.

Drone skills made near useless to a factor proportionate to the experience of their employer. Vudar don't feel the pressure of having their offensive potential stymied if they were some other opponent. I'd say its a big deal.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no pre-condition for being impacted by a drone to use the IPG in Defensive Fire. It may be freely used in either Defensive Fire or Offensive Fire. Yes, this means Stingers need to be really careful and keep their distance.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Comm-36


(5R3a) An IPG can be used in the Defensive Fire Step even if no drone has impacted the ship. This is useful against Hydran Stingers.

(5R3b) An IPG burst will damage drones which have impacted a ship (Vudar or other) which is within the two-hex burst radius.
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Vudar Commander
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve

In playing the Vudar, FC-version, I have found that without the EW effect of the IPG, they play as about 99% Feds. Which is cool.

But it seems there could be an easy way to add that effect back in (and therefore make the Vudar more Vudar like) to a small extent without adding SFB-like complexity.

My first suggestion: allow a Vudar ship to pay for EM out of IPG energy points.

Jon
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would prefer not to see that. EM and the IPG effect are very different, especially since the IPG effect has a very short time limit. I will have to review the SFB IPG rule when I get home, but I would rather see a fairly direct version of the SFB EW rule portion.

It would be quite easy: When triggered for xx energy points, all ships firing at the Vudar ship (and the Vudar ship itself, I think) are affected by a +yy shift for zz impulses. It is cumulative with other 4A4 modifiers, subject to the limit given therein (+3, I believe).

It would be a very simple rule (especially once I can look up what the values for xx, yy, and zz are supposed to be), and works like the SFB IPG. On the negative side, it gives yet another 4A4 modifier.
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junior
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this needs to be very carefully thought about, though. IPGs aren't the only weapon in SFB that provide an ECM modifier. There's certainly a point to be made about the Vudar not getting an ECM modifier on their ship, but the same point could also be made about ECM drones or the built-in ECM modifier on fighters (Stingers).

I'm not flatly opposed to the idea. But it's also true that this isn't the only system that's lost an ECM bonus.
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