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Middle Years idea
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junior
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul B wrote:
I doubt there would be much of a scenario anyway. Fed CA pursues Gorn . . .BC? or something at progressively faster speeds until both are stopped dead in space. Beyond a preliminary exchange there was no battle.


CA, or possibly a CA+ - assuming that both ships were the same size. But it may very well have been a smaller ship. Given the apparent nature of the mission, it might have been a COM (Commando Cruiser - which iirc is based off of the CL hull).

The Gorn BC could also be referred to as the CAF (i.e. a heavy cruiser with the Plasma-F refits). Unrefitted Gorn are much weaker ships. Strip the wing phaser-3s and the wing plasma-F torpedoes, and reduce the 'S' torpedoes to 'G', and see what's left. Then again, the only opponents they ever needed to face were pirates (who generally know that ticking off the navy tends to hurt the pocket book) and sub-light Romulans (who didn't even have phasers at that point)...

Plasma torpedoes make a lot of sense when your opponent can barely move at all.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leanna greenlit it today, and Briefing #2, 4022, $19.95, 96 pages, Release Feb 09, was put into the Greater Games Industry Catalog database.

BTW, I did the first of the 70+ ship cards today.


FYI, there will be two "regular" FC modules this year, one at Origins (late June, early July) and one in September. One will be Hydran Attack, one will be War & Peace. Not sure which is which.

I'm not clear that we need the ISC in Middle Years. They didn't fight anybody then. I don't think they even SAW anybody before Y160 which is post-middle years.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the time period covered, we may already be seeing a spillover into the 2560s, with the inclusion of both warp-powered Eagles and the post-Smarba ships.


Given that the Concordium between 2560 (the year they detected the Gorns and Romulans) and 2572 (the year in which the F&E scenario showing the occupation of the outer ring of provinces comes to an end, or at least does so in its WIP state) needed time to get their new fleet (and technologies) into full service, and that neither the Gorns nor Romulans were rushing to bolster what were now their ISC border fleets (the Romulans sent a Vulture in (SH203.0) because their newer ships were kept elsewhere) there is potential for such overlap.

Plus, the E-hull ISC ships would have had the likes of pirates and monsters to shoot at - not least with the gradual spread of Orion hulls into Concordium space.

(Also, it's noted that the cargo bays aboard the DNE Concordium, which would eventually be replaced with extra phasers and plasma-Fs, were used to help the massive logistical effort needed for the ISC to occupy and fortify the outer provinces - including setting up 12 battle stations in five years! So, it's possible that other pre-refit ships were being used in a similar manner, and only upgraded once the expansion was completed.)


Plus, since the pre-refit ships have neither PPDs nor rear-firing Plasma-Fs, the systems they have on board are covered by the rules already in print, and would not necessarily need to wait for War and Peace. (The Lyrans and Hydrans got their debut in BA, before DK - and its rules for things like hellbores and ESGs - was released.)


Essentially, I'm suggesting that just as the Early Years extend to 2560 for the Concordium (but given the data in Y2 for campaigns in which the ISC are 'brought up to speed' pre-2560, an extension owing as much to a percieved lack of necessity than a technological handicap) that the Middle Years for them went at least as far as the end of 2572 - coming to an end once the expansion referred to in Fed and Empire is completed - and that the nature of resources and priorities among the Gorn and Romulan forces facing the ISC in this period amounted to a kind of 'last gasp' for the E-era in the Alpha Octant for them, too.

As such, it could give those Romulan ships which are being introduced in the module a few more types of ships to take on, but do the same for the Gorns (who could be explained as having their penny-pinching Legislature less than willing to splash out on those pricey refits on yet another frontier...).



And since I've already been called on my 'fanaticism' already, I'll leave this post as my last attempt to argue in favour of including the ISC, and hope it's not a complete waste of everyone's time.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If ISC didn't meet people until after early years, then why were their ships created in SFB (Where everything has to be right)?
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Here's hoping this doesn't count as going against the promise I made in my last post...)


The space-faring history of the Concordium up to the early 2570s kinda goes as follows:

*The first non-tactical warp ('sublight') ships are built and flown by five neighbouring species, namely the humanoid Veltressai (one in 20 births result in mind-linked quadruplicates - their home world is now the ISC capital) the felinoid Korlivilar, the humanoid ammonia-breathing Q'naabians, the reptilian Pronhoulites and the psionic turtle-dolphin Rovillians. This starts around the year 2225.

*The five powers run ships which are not very long-ranged - they can only go a couple of hundred parsecs reliably. This basically keeps them stuck in what is now their capital province on the Fed and Empire map (Q'naabia is in 5810, the other four home worlds in 5910).

*Once it becomes clear that there is only a limited range of worlds they can reach (which become known as the Resource Worlds, all within the same modern-day province) the five powers fight a series of colonial wars to try and capture them. This goes on for quite a while.

*The Veltressai discover Tactical Warp in 2410 - soon copied by the others - and eventually all five build ships armed with new weapons, such as phasers and various plasma-based heavy weapons. However, they soon realise they can reach thousands of 'New Worlds' away from their home space, and more slowly realise that fighting each other over colony worlds is pointless. Eventually, a treaty is signed, and peace breaks out.

*The ISC is founded in 2449, but initially as an organisation tasked with co-ordinating responses to monster outbreaks - less-than-eco-friendly corporations from the five home planets were ransacking worlds as they found them, leading to a bad reaction from the Space Boars whose chambers were being dug into.

*Gradually, from 2480-2500 and onwards, the Concordium makes a shift from an alliance into a government - running unified bases, a police service, and eventually a unified Navy (the latter two using a set of two-pronged ships which replaced the racial ships built in an older era, and which were the forerunners to the three-pronged ones seen in the modern day).

*The ISC develop weapons and new designs they could build to upgrade or supersede their Y-era ships, but don't bother with the expense required to do so. There is no perceived need, as by and large the issues with monsters and pirates they face are not life-threatening. (Also, by 2560 the ISC has not yet claimed the outermost range of provinces shown on the Fed and Empire map.)

*Cue contact in 2560, and the shock of detecting the sight of Gorns and Romulans fighting - which awakes a sleeping giant. The ISC spend the next eight years building new ships, upgrading their two-prong fleet, introducing new weapons, and preparing for an effort geared at protecting their exposed frontiers.

*2568-2572 - the ISC launch a campaign to occupy and fortify the outer range of provinces, and set up the 12 outermost battle stations you see on the map. In this time, they reveal themselves to the Gorns, fight (and defeat) a Romulan squadron, have a clash between a DNE and a Vulture, and otherwise make their presence known.

(In this period, the kind of refits and weapon systems which are more common by the end of the General War - like rear-firing plasmas, extra phasers and PPDs - are either yet to be introduced, or are less commonplace.)



I hope that helps.
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junior
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinecone wrote:
If ISC didn't meet people until after early years, then why were their ships created in SFB (Where everything has to be right)?


The short version is that before they decided that warp travel would make everyone peaceful, they spent too much time beating each other up and had to have ships to do that.

And then even during the peaceful period there were also the occasional run-ins with things like Space Dragons that don't much care whether or not you believe in galactic peace when they decide to ravage one of your planets.

In short, even if your territory is a pretty peaceful place, you need at least a minimal military presence. You just don't work on upgrading it very much if you don't have neighbors.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite frankly, my main concern about including the ISC ships in the Middle Years is not the timeline (though that is a legitimate issue), it is that their ships are just too good. Even without the rear plasma and Ph-3s, the ISC ships are big, tough, and powerful. They will eat up equivalent ships. The cruisers, in particular, are just nasty.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So much for keeping a limit on my efforts on this - apologies - but I will point out that the same can be said in the later era, too.

The only ISC ship class which isn't meaner than its average Alpha Octant-native equivalent is the BB.

But then, the later ships which have this discrepancy are pointed accordingly - compare the 263 points for a Condor-H or 246 for the Gorn DNH to the 294 for the ISC equivalent, to give just one example. (or 260 for the ISC DNL, compared to 214 for the Gorn ship or 232 for the Shrike.)

And compared to the differences between hulls in, say, Omega (the displacements of what the Worb or Trobrin brand as a CA are very different to those of, say, the Loriyill or Hivers) or between any Alpha DN and a Dominator, even this difference is not so bad.


As in the later era, and as in SFB, keeping tabs on the point value requirements would help.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There might be room for some "hypothetical scenarios" in the Middle Years Briefing #2.

For example, there was some talk of a Battle of Cestus III. The actual "battle" might be the face off of a Fed CA against some type of Gorn ship. Perhaps the Fed CA would have a Degraded Crew because the captain and first officer are not on board. Throw in a planet and a Fed and Gorn "boarding party" on the surface.

Another possibility might deal with the response of each empire if you assume that the Fed CA and the Gorn ship were teleported so far away that they are out of range of subspace communication. The latest information that each empire received was that they were being invaded. Since nothing further was heard from their ship in the area, each side throws together a response squadron. The two squadrons meet at the planet and a battle ensues. (This might be a good spot for a Fed battle tug to make an appearance...it is available instead of a dreadnought.)

Anyway, just a couple of ideas. Names could certainly be changed to avoid any copyright infringements.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kinda like that scenario idea ...
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Paul B
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:

Another possibility might deal with the response of each empire if you assume that the Fed CA and the Gorn ship were teleported so far away that they are out of range of subspace communication. The latest information that each empire received was that they were being invaded. Since nothing further was heard from their ship in the area, each side throws together a response squadron. The two squadrons meet at the planet and a battle ensues. (This might be a good spot for a Fed battle tug to make an appearance...it is available instead of a dreadnought.)


I think I've heard somewhere the "no tugs" idea thrown around before. And really, I'd tend to agree with it. The whole idea of a battle tug is pretty stupid to me quite honestly. If the tugs are doing the fighting who's doing the tugging? Where are the supply lines? In a war a Logistics ship is much more valuable as a logistic ship than a warship. If you're throwing auxiliaries into the front lines your war effort must be desperate indeed (talking about empires, rather than the player here).

But that's just my opinion. Put some real warships in the scenario!

And if Sulu's in command, why is he still at his station in that episode instead of in the Captain's chair. That always bugged me, I'd rather of seen Sulu giving orders than Kirk giving orders from the planet when he's totally removed from the situation. But that's off topic (watched that bad boy a few weeks ago).
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Mike
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul B:

Arena one of the best episodes ever!

But back to the point...

I'm not necessarily pushing for a battle tug. If that's a dead issue, so be it. The only reason I mentioned it was because I remember reading somewhere a long time ago that battle tugs were put together in crisis situations when an admiral needed a bruiser of a ship and a dreadnought wasn't available. So, scrap the idea of a battle tug and go with the early version of the dreadnought (the 4 photon version).

Perhaps the FJ DN, a lollipop DD, and a couple of frigates for the Feds. What would be a suitable response squadron for the Gorns?
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Magnum357
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikes got a point here about Tugs. Granted, not your ideal warship, but they are a common ship among most races that can easily be converted to a specific mission in a hurry. Even though the Romulans where the only ones that mass produced "Module ships", the Tugs are the next best thing to them.

I thought I remember that the Battle Tug was useful for base assults and as Mike stated, an easy fix for a Fleet Commander that needed a ship with a lot of firepower. I might be wrong on this, but I thought I remember reading that most Starbases had a spare Battlepod handy incase a Tug needed one. Logistically, that can be useful to help a bases defense too.

Back on topic, is this "Middle years" suggestion actually going to be made? Or is just speculation?
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's going to be included in breifing 2.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is Briefing #2. Briefing #2 will be entirely made up of the Middle Years.
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