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Slow turning

 
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:16 am    Post subject: Slow turning Reply with quote

A ship moved one hex straight forwards at the end of the last turn.

On the current turn, the ship declares Speed Zero.

In Impulse #1, then the ship can simply turn in place without accelerating or decelerating. This will reset the turn mode and slip mode to zero as the ship has then not moved out of the hex. If the ship accelerates by one hex later in the turn, it will then have moved a hex forwards and will therefore be able to slip [only if it moves after having fulfilled the slip mode of course], but again it can turn in place without moving.

1) Is that correct?

2) When in the sub-pulse procedure does it move? I would suggest just before the Speed 0+1 ships in sub-pulse #4 since it is slower than they are.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to speak for Mike West, but if a ship is at speed zero, it does not move. If it does not accelerate, it cannot even turn one hexside.

In your example, the ship's turn mode has been fulfilled, but it still cannot turn unless it either:

a. accelerates - then it could turn one hexside and move straight ahead after that, OR

b. pays to accelerate and then to decelerate - this would cancel its forward movement, but still allow it to turn "in place" by one hexside.

As far as when in the impulse procedure this would happen, I think it would happen in the last sub-pulse (#4). By accelerating, the ship would have a speed of "0+".

That is how I understand this movement situation.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike got it right in one. Smile

The "turn in place without accelerating or decelerating" is called a Tactical Maneuver (2D1). Tactical Maneuvers may only be performed when the ship is Stopped, not at Speed Zero.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I accept the ruling, thanks - but I would still say that the actual act of turning does not in and of itself cost movement points. But I can see where you're coming from and will play it that way from now on.

Thanks for the reply. Interestingly, the situation came up in a training game last night and I ruled as in my initial posting above. Bah. I will now have to let the trainee player know that I was wrong Smile

Humble pie has never tasted so good Wink
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Kang
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually Mike[s], I have to contest your ruling here.

Firstly, Rule (2C3b) as it is interpreted in CL#32, page 38 - ok I know it's a pre-Rulebook 4 ruling, but I have not seen the change incorporated into RB4 and it's not in the CRUL - says that if as unit satisfied its turn mode on the previous turn or impulse, then it can turn. That's the basis of my question, not simply that it's at speed zero. It's at speed zero with its turn mode fulfilled - that's a different beast from a ship which cannot turn or slip because its modes are at zero due to it being 'stopped' on a previous turn.

Secondly, turning in place is not always a HET or Tac maneuver. It can also be a decelerated turn-in-place. That's what we're talking here - a previously fulfilled turn mode where the turn happens but the move out of the hex is cancelled by decel.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are mixing things up, and this is NOT what you said in the first post.

In the first post you said: "In Impulse #1, then the ship can simply turn in place without accelerating or decelerating". That is NOT possible except via either a Tactical Maneuver (which means the ship is Stopped), or a High Energy turn.

Now, if your ship has fulfilled its turn mode, and it is at speed Zero, then you may accelerate and decelerate and turn in place. That is perfectly fine. But, that is not what you said in the first post.

Finally, just because a ship is eligible to turn doesn't mean it can turn outside the rest of the rules governing turning. And (outside Tactical Manuevers and High Energy Turns) all turns involve movement. Even if that movement is cancelled as part of the turn.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Now, if your ship has fulfilled its turn mode, and it is at speed Zero, then you may accelerate and decelerate and turn in place. That is perfectly fine. But, that is not what you said in the first post.


Thanks for that, Mike, but that's my point. The first line of my OP says that the ship moved one hex at the end of the last turn. It has fulfilled its turn mode, so according to that rule in CL#32, 'then it can turn'. It doesn't say it has to accel/decel to do so, presumably because it's carried over the hexes moved already as in the example in the rulebook - although that example has 2 hexes towards a turn mode of 4. Granted, I could be mixing things up of course, but I wanted to see how the CL#32 rule fits in.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can only turn on a sub pulse where you are scheduled to move, thats why you have to decel. Go back and read the main rulebook about turning there is an example of this very thing. Just because your turn mode is fullfilled doesn't mean you can turn. You are using a problem with the english language to make a case for being able to use this maneuver, think of it this way:

Player A: I Haven't fired phasers this turn at all so I can fire phasers this turn...
Player B: but you don't have any power.
player A: but the rules say i can fire phasers once per turn so I can fire my phasers

Simplistic... yes, but I think it is an effective example.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savedfromwhat wrote:
you can only turn on a sub pulse where you are scheduled to move, thats why you have to decel.

Not trying to escape the English language; I'm a master of it - and wouldn't try to twist it.

However your point about only being able to turn on a sub-pulse when scheduled to move is an excellent one. Does it actually say that in the rulebook? If so, then that is the answer to my question - thanks! Btw, d'ye have the reference for that rule? That would be most helpful as I'm at work at the moment and don't have access to my rulebook....
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure: (2C1). It specifically mentions that a turn is performed immediately before moving into the next hex. It also states that High Energy Turns and Tactical Maneuvers are different and, while producing the same effect as a turn, are not the same as a (2C1) turn.

A ship may only perform a (2C1) turn in a sub-pulse in which it is scheduled to move. It could be scheduled to move because of an acceleration. It might not move because of a deceleration. Regardless, it was still scheduled to move, and is thus eligible to turn if its turn mode is fulfilled.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent - thanks Mike and Saved. This is all clear now and I see how it fits with the CL#32 thing.

The problem with this one for me was that I was teaching a n00b player the game when this one cropped up - as in the OP - so I really wanted to get it right.

Thanks for your help guys! Smile

Edit: Said n00b player was one of the guys who kicked my Fed ship off the board, as I related in my Fed tactics query recently. Just shows how easy the game is to learn, and allowing the players to concentrate on the play rather than the mechanics....
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