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Range 0 fire arc coverage?
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
I think we are seeing relative position as meaning different things, to me it is the angle from my heading that my opponent is at.

Analagous I suppose to describing a dogfight, the well known o'clock postions is describing relative positioning, If the other guy is on your 6 and you turn right 90 degrees (with no forward movement) then he is now at 3. My turn changed his relative position to me. But my position relative to him has not changed, I was in front of him and still am - just facing another way. When just 1 of the 2 opponents turns and neither actually moves then 1 of the relative positions must change.

This is describing what I am calling "facing". Which shield is pointing at the enemy at any given time is my facing. By position, I mean in the map directions.

So, for example, if I am flying Ship B, and you are in Ship A, and we determine that you are in map direction F from my ship, then as long as we stay in the same hex, and no matter how much we turn (i.e. change our "facing"), you will always be in map direction F from my ship (i.e. "position" does not change).

Of course, once the two ships end a sub-pulse in separate hexes, this is all tossed. When we reenter the same hex, it starts over from that point.

[edit] and going back to why this came up in a game, the turning vessel was wanting to bring more weapons to bear. Whilst it was clear the targets shield hadn't changed, it was less clear from the rules whether the turn counted as changing my (or not actually my ship in the actual game it happened) shield, and by implication,weapon arcs to the target. From your last reply it would, as we would move back to the previous hexes but using the new facing which gives me a new shield facing and weapons.[/quote]
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USS Enterprise
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did Steve Cole just say all weapons can or can't be fired at range 0.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All weapons can be fired at range 0... but only at targets that are in their arc of fire. The hexes are soooooooo much larger than the individual ships that firing arc / facings are determined based on the relative positions the units had prior to entering the same hex.

i.e. two units facing each others #1 shield at a range of two hexes, both move directly ahead.
This puts them in the same hex...
but since their #1 shields were facing each other at range 2, now the #1 shields are still facing each other... but at range 0...
Any weapon that could fire out of the #1 shield facing (LF arc, front arc, RF arc, FH arc, FX arc) can fire.
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USS Enterprise
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes sense, strangely, I thought all weapons to be 360 at range 0.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I thought all weapons to be 360 at range 0.


Is there a reason you came to that conclusion,
it would give everyone a chance to see where a rule or explanation might be confusing or vague ---
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

USS Enterprise wrote:
Did Steve Cole just say all weapons can or can't be fired at range 0.

Well, given that there's a Range '0' column on the weapons charts, to say 'no' would be a bit odd Smile
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USS Enterprise
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang, my point was whether all weapons could be fired at range 0 or only some based on prior positioning.

I was probably just taught that way.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing in the rulebook say, hints, implies, or supports a conclusion that all weapons are 360° at range zero. Firing arcs work like the rulebook says the work, and those same rules have been used in SFB for 30 years without anybody being confused at all. Somebody is just trying to make his house rule mesh with the rulebook, and it won't. The rulebook is just fine until you start inserting imaginary new rules, only then does it get confusing.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

USS Enterprise wrote:
Kang, my point was whether all weapons could be fired at range 0 or only some based on prior positioning.

I see. Thanks for the clarification Smile
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Nothing in the rulebook say, hints, implies, or supports a conclusion that all weapons are 360° at range zero. Firing arcs work like the rulebook says the work, and those same rules have been used in SFB for 30 years without anybody being confused at all. Somebody is just trying to make his house rule mesh with the rulebook, and it won't. The rulebook is just fine until you start inserting imaginary new rules, only then does it get confusing.


Whilst I seem to be dealing with range 0 arcs the way expected, I had to laugh at your assertion on the rules being so clear (or even more bizarrly, explicit as your last post said).

This is isn't SFB. New younger players probably have no idea how SFB works, and younger players (the 10+ age group the game claims to be suitable for) in particular are less likley to have extensive experience of similiar games. How do you know no one was confused by SFB? when I played SFB about 25 years ago we couldn't have asked the question if we wanted - the internet wasn't exactly widely used back then! we weren't going to make an international phone call from a signifiacntly different time zone to ask you in person, and only the more serious gamers were likely to even think of writing for an answer. The internet and on line forums for games make it far easier for casual/younger gamers with questions to ask them rather than just come up with their own answers like we used to have to do.

Which part of the rule book explicitly says how firing arcs are calculated at range 0. I find no reference to such a thing at all.

What I can see explicitly, is that section 3B has a nice set of diagrams showing which hexes each arc can fire into, note (in my rev 4 rule book) that non of the diagrams show the ships own hex as shaded. Inference 1 - a ship cannot fire into its own hex. Alternative inference 2 - firing arcs do not matter at range 0, all weapons are in arc at range 0. Alternative inference 3 - the rules forgot to cover it.

The section on shield facing covers, and I quote, "which shield was hit", and nothing else. Inference - this rule clearly expects range 0 shooting as it has a rule covering it, therefore inference 1 above seems unlikely, and inference 2 most likely. Alternatlively, Inference 4 - mechanism for working out shields at range 0 is also meant to apply to working out firing arcs, in one way this is the weakest inference - if you are working out something about weapon arcs then inferences from the weapon arc section not unreasonably trump inferences from sections on shields.

Explicit rules covering arcs at range 0 = 0.
Implied rules or inferences covering range 0 arcs = 4.

Some other points that have come up in this thread.

Quote:
the shield facings pretty must directly imply what the weapons in arc will be


The shield you have facing the enemy does not directly determine your weapons that can fire on said enemy, there is some correlation but one doesn't cause the other. Someone to whom I show shield number 2 could be to my R or RF or both. I could shoot a ship on my R, whilst being shot through either the 2 or 3 shield.

Quote:
Fairly Simple case: Ship A is in hex 21, facing D. Ship B is in hex 32, facing A. In this case, both ships have their #6 shields facing each other. Ship A turns left (no facing C) and enter's Ship B's hex. To determine the shield facing in this case, we again follow (3C6d) and move Ship A to its previous position. Note, however, that the movement occurred AFTER the turn. So, when we move Ship A back to its original hex, it is facing C, not D.


There is an implied statement here that on the sub-pulse of the move into the same hex the order of turn and move is somehow important. Rule 3C6d, however, seems very amibigous to me. We use the position of the ship on the subpulse before it entered the hex. Is 'before' referring to the 'subpulse before', or 'before it entered the hex'. My reading is that we go back an extra sub-pulse, so if ship turns and moves into the same hex on subpulse 4 then we go back to sub-pulse 3 to determine shields, as that was the sub-pulse before it entered the hex. That implies that the order of events on the sub-pulse of the move is irrelevant, non of those events had occured at that point. The second interpretation just seems to tortured to me, the reference to subpulse in that case appears pretty meaningless as 'position before it entered the hex' needs no obvious reference to subpulses at all.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Quote:
the shield facings pretty must directly imply what the weapons in arc will be


The shield you have facing the enemy does not directly determine your weapons that can fire on said enemy, there is some correlation but one doesn't cause the other. Someone to whom I show shield number 2 could be to my R or RF or both. I could shoot a ship on my R, whilst being shot through either the 2 or 3 shield.

Yes, shield facing, when in the same hex, EXACTLY determines what weapons you can fire. The reason is because you take the last ship to move into the hex and back them up to their previous hex. This means that you will be using the same firing arc determination as you do at range one. This is deterministic. The fact that firing arcs overlap doesn't change that.

So, if you are (to use your example) showing your #2 shield to the enemy, then you may fire any weapon that can fire into either the RF or R arcs. (RF, R, FA, RS, FX, RX, and combinations thereof.)

The one possible exception to that is if both ships are moving at the exact same speed (i.e. same speed, turn mode, and acceleration/deceleration, such that it is necessary to write down simultaneous orders), it is possible that you will use range two to determine the shield facings (and thus firing arcs). Either way, the shield facing determined in (3C6) will absolutely determine which weapons are in arc, and which weapons are not.

Quote:
Quote:
Fairly Simple case: Ship A is in hex 21, facing D. Ship B is in hex 32, facing A. In this case, both ships have their #6 shields facing each other. Ship A turns left (now facing C) and enter's Ship B's hex. To determine the shield facing in this case, we again follow (3C6d) and move Ship A to its previous position. Note, however, that the movement occurred AFTER the turn. So, when we move Ship A back to its original hex, it is facing C, not D.


There is an implied statement here that on the sub-pulse of the move into the same hex the order of turn and move is somehow important. Rule 3C6d, however, seems very amibigous to me. We use the position of the ship on the subpulse before it entered the hex. Is 'before' referring to the 'subpulse before', or 'before it entered the hex'. My reading is that we go back an extra sub-pulse, so if ship turns and moves into the same hex on subpulse 4 then we go back to sub-pulse 3 to determine shields, as that was the sub-pulse before it entered the hex. That implies that the order of events on the sub-pulse of the move is irrelevant, non of those events had occured at that point. The second interpretation just seems to tortured to me, the reference to subpulse in that case appears pretty meaningless as 'position before it entered the hex' needs no obvious reference to subpulses at all.

No, the order of the ship's turn and movement is not important. That was not the intent of my description (even if that is how it appeared). The important point is that when moving the last ship to enter the hex back to its previous hex, the only thing that matters is which hex it was. This establishes how the two ships are positioned relative to each other. Then, having established their relative positions, you use the ships' headings to see what the current shield facings are.

Lemme try this one more time with different terms.

When two ships enter the same hex, their position toward each other, expressed as directions on the hex map, become fixed as long as the two ships remain in the same hex. The ships can change their heading (through various means) such that their shield facings can change. The ships can even simultaneously move into another hex together. But the two ships will never stop being in the same map direction from each other as long as they are in the same hex.

So, in my example double quoted above, when Ship A moves into ship B's hex, it is in map direction F from Ship B. And Ship B is in map direction C from Ship A. No matter what heading Ship A changes to, and no matter what heading Ship B changes to, Ship A will always be in map direction F from Ship B, and Ship B will always be in map direction C from Ship A. (Until, of course, the ships stop being in the same hex.)
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Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My head is starting to spin....hopefully not 360 degrees!
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Kang
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
My head is starting to spin....hopefully not 360 degrees!

Have you rolled for breakdown? Wink
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, I don't have a problem with your answers per se (once we cleared up what we were meaning by relative positioning) and wouldn't have responded further, they all seem to be how we play. But the statements that rules and are somehow so clear, complete and explicit carries a pretty strong implication that anyone who had a question must be stupid.

Quote:

Yes, shield facing, when in the same hex, EXACTLY determines what weapons you can fire. The reason is because you take the last ship to move into the hex and back them up to their previous hex. This means that you will be using the same firing arc determination as you do at range one. This is deterministic. The fact that firing arcs overlap doesn't change that.


Question: How do I determine weapon arc at range 0?

You are explaining something that can only be seen to be true once you know the answer to the question, it does not answer the question itself.

Quote:
Just as at any range above 0, what shield you have facing an opponet determines what weapons can fire.


So if I tell you that I am engaging someone who is shooting me through my number 6 shield can you tell exactly what weapon arcs I can bring to bear - no, I will make it easier and tell you that I will also be shooting him through his 6, it is still not possible work it out. There are at least 3 scenarios that I can see that result in different answers.

If I have read the rules and am wondering how weapon arcs are determined at range 0 then saying it is obvious from the shield facing doesn't help much - how you arrive at that conclusion is what I needed, i.e go back as per 3C6 and determine both weapon arc and shield facing from that position at the same time (and not just shield facing).

Again this is less to do with your explanation and more to do with how this was meant to be worked out from the clear, complete, explicit rules. Suggestions that weapon arcs can always be determined by shield facing being demonstably false.

Quote:
No, the order of the ship's turn and movement is not important....


I understand your final conclusion, and that is how we play it. That was more aimed at pointing out a rule that is not quite as clear as some are thinking, and doesn't gel with some explanations as to how it works.


To go back to another point, similiar to the person who thought all weapons could fire at range 0, I was taught SFB a many moons ago by the the person who introduced me to the game, not by going out and buying it and readng the rules. By the time I got round to getting my SFB stuff I already had a good grasp of how the game worked according to the person who introduced me to the game. If in FC I had been taught that all weapons could fire at range 0 and then read the rules it would not jump out at me as being wrong, nothing explicitly contradicts it, and there are a couple of possible inferences, including weapon arcs being irrelevant at that range. As I noted in an earlier post, given the amount of implied rules or ambiguities it is easy once you think you know something to read that as being supported by the rules, be it the designers seeing what he intended, or a player looking to confirm his understanding.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Suggestions that weapon arcs can always be determined by shield facing being demonstably false.


In a way you are correct, but are missing the real discussion (I think most everyone is) ----

Weapons arcs never change, you always know which specific shields they are capable of firing through ---

All that you need to determine (for each weapon) is if one of those shields is facing your target ----

Seems people are discounting that permanent facet of ships, which in turn is causing them to read something into their determination that isn't there --- Your overthinking a very simple inquiry by inserting something thats necessary ---
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