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Ship Point Value System

 
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HeyRandy
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Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 17
Location: Dayton, Ohio

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 1:06 pm    Post subject: Ship Point Value System Reply with quote

Hi guys, I am a new player of Fed Comm - returning from the 80's when I used to plan SFB in college. Yes, I still have my pocket game from TFG...

I really like the new approach - I own FC:KB, the new Reference Rule Book and Briefing #2. In addition to the boat-load of new minis that I purchased, I have some old FASA ship miniatures that I would like to integrate in to the game. I have scanned the rules and did a search here on the forum for how ships are assigned a POINT VALUE but couldn't find it. Does anyone have a rough idea for the formula that I could use?

As a business owner myself, I understand that this might be considered "proprietary information" and not available to the public. I respect that, I simply want to add some non-ADB ships the game and nothing more...

Thanks for all of the great info already posted on this forum and to ADB for providing a fantastic game!
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Scoutdad
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4453
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, there is no "system" for determining point values.

Different power curves, phaser suites, firing arcs, ancilliary systems, etc. often combine in unexpected ways and offer too many variables to enable a single algorythm to compensate for all variables

As one of those involved in play testing, I've seen new units introduced with point values based on ships of similar size / function that for various reasons do not meet, or even wildly exceed presumed performance expectations. This invariably results in a change in point value, more testing, more refining of point value, more testing, etc. until all of the playtesters are happy.
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MajerBlundor
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Joined: 03 Apr 2009
Posts: 123

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad raises an important point on point values. Even my sons have noticed that equal points doesn't always mean a good match-up on a ship-for-ship basis!

Points certainly can serve as a rough guide to relative capability but when planning scenarios we've been looking closely at what's actually on a ship and how it compares to a particular opponent. And tactics relative to ship configuration is crucial so even if two ships have equal points how they're used can have a huge impact on results.

In fact, last week we received "Battleships Attack!" and upon seeing one particular ship my older son commented on its value relative to smaller ships in the same fleet exclaiming, "That ship doesn't seem worth the points!" Looking at the ship I'd have to agree with him, but since he loves that particular fleet so much we'll be battling with it later this week, regardless of any points analysis!

MB
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HeyRandy
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Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 17
Location: Dayton, Ohio

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I have a better understanding of what to do. My 14 year old son and I play Star Wars Miniatures a lot (it was my "gateway" to introduce him to wargaming) and points for units are very important for creating scenarios.

I am quite used to the "gut feeling" approach to determining orders of battle for scenarios so we'll go with that. I found many SSDs for SFB online of all kinds of variants so I will look at those examples and take a stab at bringing them into the game. Meanwhile, there are plenty of ships for us to enjoy now!

Thanks for the quick input and we are looking forward to attending GENCON this year - hope to see some of you there!
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Steve Cole
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Joined: 11 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The formula has never been published (and never will be). Even it just comes up with a general number which playtesting then modifies. The problem, as some noted, is dynamics. Adding a point of power to THIS ship is worth a lot more than adding a point of power to THAT ship.

Just take a guess, then adjust it based on how it works.

Now, I have to say this. If you create your own ship card and post it (under our web policy) that's fine, but if you're basing it on somebody's copyrighted mini, maybe you want to avoid mentioning that element.
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ericphillips
Commander


Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 702
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA, Sol, Gould Belt, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe Beta

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MajerBlundor wrote:
Scoutdad raises an important point on point values. Even my sons have noticed that equal points doesn't always mean a good match-up on a ship-for-ship basis!


Point values are only a guide. I played GURPS for years, a point value based RPG. If you and I created 200 point warriors, one may be able to whoop the other on a regular basis. It all depends on the combination of traits taken. I imagine it is the same here. Not only does the points for compnents change depending on situation, I am sure some designs are better for certain scenarios than others. Therefore in a duel two 150 BPV ships, one may have an advantage even at same point values.

A caveat: experience of the player is the real difference. A great player could beat a lesser player with a lesser ship.

In the end, playing and getting to know the ships and how they perform is best for judging the ships you need in battle.
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1865
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look for relative matchups:
Fd Kli KZ Th Or
FF F5 FF PCx2 ---
CL D6 --- --- CR
CA D7 BC --- ---
BC C7 --- --- ---
DN C8 --- --- ---

And that's just Klingon border. Someday I'll write all of the relative matchups.

NOTE: (the CL is weaker than the D6, but it is as close as it gets. A CA/CL vs. D6x2 would be about even, but leaning twoards the Feds.)

NOTE: (The F5 is weaker than the FF of Feds or Kzintis. but three of them against a cruiser would slightly favoe the frigates.)
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Cole wrote:
Just take a guess, then adjust it based on how it works.

Bet that's how they do it at ADB.... Smile Smile
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Wolverin61
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Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 496
Location: Mississippi

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
Steve Cole wrote:
Just take a guess, then adjust it based on how it works.

Bet that's how they do it at ADB.... Smile Smile


I bet they use TLAR (That Looks About Right) Wink
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1929
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolverin61 wrote:
Kang wrote:
Steve Cole wrote:
Just take a guess, then adjust it based on how it works.

Bet that's how they do it at ADB.... Smile Smile


I bet they use TLAR (That Looks About Right) Wink

Indeed. That's probably why the formula is such a closely-guarded secret Wink
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah, as I already said, we start with the formula (on new designs; variant start by adjusting from the original ship). But the formula isn't perfect and doesn't always work, which is what playtesting is for.
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Mike
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Joined: 07 May 2007
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Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember once seeing a formula on an independent website (might it have been Don Miller's or John Kim's???). The author said it was a general formula and was just a starting point that could and would be modified by playtesting.
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HeyRandy
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Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 17
Location: Dayton, Ohio

PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again for all of the great input... I had located Don Miller's site before and is a great source for home-grown SSDs. I hadn't notice his formula before.

I think I am going to keep the ship cards that I have now and "fit" the non-SFB miniatures that I have to existing ship classes/cards.

Have a great weekend!
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