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Middle Years tactics?
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djdood wrote:
Bottom-line, it was an old (if enlarged) hull design that was nearly at the extreme upper limit of what it could be pushed to. There was little room or capability left to expand or update it and military equipment always needs room to change to compete with emerging threats. If it can't, then it will be pushed-aside for something that can.


Technically, that might have been what those who designed and engineered the OCA hulls considered to be so at the time - but as the Aurorans gradually proved, there was plenty of life left in the old Terran design yet!

The Aurorans not only developed their own Armoured Cruiser (CLA) design derived from the CL model, but eventually managed to build both larger Battlecruisers and much larger again Dreadnoughts, which served to defend the Federal Republic during some of its most critical junctures.


(But on the other hand, the Aurorans had to rely on the Terran-hull ships for their fleet, as they had no access to production facilities suitable for saucer-and-nacelle Star Fleet designs. Even so, it is to their credit how they made such virtue of their necessity!)
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djdood
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Necessity is the mother of all invention. Smile

In the Alpha Octant, with the Constitution-class proving to be such a standout success, the Federation would have been silly to not pursue it.

The oCA is an odd also-ran. I love it though. The DDF is another strange almost-made-it ship. Neat, but missed its window of time to matter.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see. The ship wasn't cost efficient, even if more capable than the CA. Oh well, I'll use the CAR when it comes out.
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djdood
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty much.

Think of it this way: Once you're old enough to drive, someone could give you a 1960's Buick, or a 1990's Honda.
Both could get from point A to point B nicely. They would both be perfectly functional cars, able to do the job.

Where the differences come in is things not involving your mission (driving from A to B).

The Buick would be harder to find parts for and get it serviced. The Buick's dashboard would also have been designed so only its stock AM radio fits in there; if you want a modern AM/FM/CD-player with an mp3 jack, you're going to have to start cutting big holes in the dashboard, or lash it underneath in some claptrap bracket. The same if you want to add GPS. Cellular modem for wifi laptop internet or OnStar? More trouble. DVD and video screens for the kids in the back seat? More trouble.

The Buick would only have a very few "accessory" wiring options, so adding any other do-dads involves some pretty wacky wiring spaghetti, whereas the Honda would have wire bundles already in-place for options they were hoping someone would buy (options and devices not even dreamed of when the Buick was designed).

The Buick wouldn't have a third (center) taillight. If you wanted to add one, more wacky wiring and cutting of interior parts. The Honda has it built-in.

The list goes on.

Yes, the older machine can be "refitted" to keep pace with newer technologies, but eventually the amount of effort is just not worth it.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great example, Will - I love it.
But like every example, there is a really big hole in it...

What if the 1960's Buick someone wanted to give you was actually a mint condition GSX?

It's be worth the hassel of trying to find leaded gasoline and such just for the sheer muscle-car joy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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djdood
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somehow I knew some motor-head would rain on my analogy Razz

I went through almost exactly what I described, when I got my first car (a beater '65 Mustang). Lots of work to make that car have the "amenities" an 18 year old needs in 1987.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I just got a cell phone, so I'll be content for a while Wink . Mabey this would work:

A small bike (too small for whoever you are) in mint condition vs. a large enough bike splattered with mud.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That analogy is less relevant in 2525 than it would have been in, say, 2560.


In the earlier time, both classes of ship were new construction (and, presumably, with a lot of the required systems and details factored into the new design) so choosing between the two is not quite so different.


Choosing between the two classes in 2560, when a brand-new Constitution-class ship can still roll off the slipways, but no new Terran-derived hulls have been built (outside of Aurora III, though no-one in the Alpha Octant would know this at the time) since the two historical OCAs were first flown, of course, is perhaps closer to what you have in mind.


And it's worth noting that the likes of the Auroran CLA, BC and DN are all new construction, too - which would inherit certain traits from their forebears, but still be constructed with the further evolution of the Republic's technology base in mind.


(Though whether any 'war cruiser' design inherits the mantle held by the CL in FRA space remains to be seen.)
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djdood
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd still challenge that.

Older hull designs are inherently limited in where they can be taken, down the road. Their design legacy locks them in. This happens with airplanes all the time and ships as well. Even if you build a brand new copy of something designed in an earlier technology era, its built-in limitations (call it lack of foresight by the designers if you want to) come back to haunt folks later.

Another example (using made-up names) -

In year XXX1, no one had even dreamed of a quantum-flux imbibinator, so obviously the Dirty Harry-class cruiser wasn't built with accommodations for one when they first joined the fleet in the following years. You don't waste time, money, and mass designing to something no one has even thought of.

Later in year XX50, when it was found that no ship can survive without an imbibinator, plans are made to refit the Dirty Harry-class ships with one to try and keep them competitive.

The engineers nearly riot when they are tasked with making a quantum-flux imbibinator work with the small amount of power the old ship's can generate.

The shipyard workers nearly riot when they have to cut the Dirty Harry's into small pieces and then reassemble them around the new imbibinator.

While that is going on, the brand new John McClane-class cruisers are just coming off the slipways, built with the imbibinator in mind and even having provisions for a second one built-in (along with removable hull plates to install it, when someone invents an engine big enough to power more than one).

In another 40 years the McClane's will be just as dated and in a dead-end, but every design has its window of relevance before it is pushed aside.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two parts of my response to that.


One - in the case of the Aurorans, they didn't have a choice. They couldn't exactly go and ask the Maesrons to build new ships for them, didn't have the time or industrial capacity to construct brand new shipyards for themselves, and were only able to build the BC and DN after the Maesrons provided the upgrades to the Auroran yard that would allow them to fit the larger hull types.


Two - despite both their logistical limitations and the legacy of the Terran hulls they were inheriting, they were still able to come up with a range of pretty effective starship classes, both in terms of the larger cruisers, Klingon-hybrid destroyers and other units they have been shown to field, but in the kind of 'war' cruisers and X-ships they are noted as building, but have yet to see published for SFB.


Just because it turned out not to be viable for the UFP to push the Terran legacy further does not mean they wouldn't have been able to get worthy ships had they done so...


...otherwise, Aurora III would have ended up as a vassal of the Trobrin Empire, an Andromedan-occupied slave planet, or a Souldra-scoured dead world.


(Indeed, when the FRA did join the Alliance in 2609, they insisted on retaining their own starship production - despite the proven worth of the Maesron ships they could have acquired instead. While the proud history of the Auroran Navy would be a factor, I'd like to think they were doing just fine with their own ships anyway.)
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djdood
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we are talking past each other Gary.

I've only been discussing the oCA as an Alpha Octant ship (and alpha octant build practices tend to model modern real-world ones). I have no interest (or expertise) in Omega settings.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The construction practices of most Omega factions follow similar conventions - at least for those without wholly distinct technology bases (such as the Mirn, Branthodon and Souldra, to give three examples) and the Aurorans, as transplanted Federation (and eventually also Klingon, Lyran and ISC) citizens, both inherit the same Alpha lineage that the Federation had up to 2530, and use it as one of the (but not the only) building blocks for their further development.


Most Omega factions have little direct relevance to Alpha settings, at least prior to the 2610s - but the Aurorans are a special case.


Otherwise, I would not have mentioned them.


As an aside, if you ever get the chance to flick through a copy of Omega 3, or the Omega Master Rulebook, I'd definitely recommend it - if only to see how the CL and POL (and indirectly, the OCA, which would have likely been in the databanks when they went over, though one can only guess what, if any, influence it had on later Auroran ship designs) found themselves as the foundation of the Auroran Navy.
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markgeorgetwo
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:35 am    Post subject: post subject Reply with quote

Last week to test out the briefing 2 we played the classic star trek TOS encounter earrand of mercy the enterprise opened fire on my fleet .

What damaged a couple of D7s Mad so i returned fire what happend i heavy damaged the enterprise forcing it off i do admit i had some lucky throws on the dice Wink i will publish details on the dicussion board later.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think the best tactic of all is to not get blown up...
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USS Enterprise
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed
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