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That rule change

 
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Lieutenant JG


Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:37 pm    Post subject: That rule change Reply with quote

Yes, I’m talking about the semi-new rules change which creates a 1-impulse delay between declaring Evasive Maneuvers and when they take effect. Please -- this is not a thread to discuss the pros and cons of the rule change. There were pros. There were cons. What’s done is done.

What I am asking for are suggestions on how to deal with the situation where, in FCOL, one player knows about the rule and the other does not. The only people who would know about the rule are those who have the Rev. 5 rulebook or who read the forum … and whoever they told.

Last week I played a game against Peewee and he declared Evasive Maneuvers. He has the Rev. 4 rulebook and does not use the forums, so was quite surprised when I told him the new rule. Luckily we are both easy-going, and he -- being extremely gracious – agreed to use the new ruling despite it messing up his strategy. (sometimes just going back one impulse won’t fix things). … and on a side note just to say how gracious this guy is, he tried firing Overloaded Disruptors at Range 9. (He miscounted) I said he had to wait until range 8, or could just fire standards. He then simply declared his Overloaded Disruptors as an auto-miss due to his error. Talk about a nice guy! I was humbled…

Anyway, back to the point … I can take care of forwarding the CRUL to anyone I play against, but should or could there be some method of alerting new FCOL players to the fact that there is this new rule? I would hate to see a really tense game ruined by two people having different rules. Perhaps a link to the CRUL on the top of the page or something?

I realize this will not happen so many times … and maybe there are few enough FCOL players that I can inform them all … but if there is the possibility of a nice easy way to avoid this situation, I figured it was worth my time to ask.

Thanks.
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Steve Cole
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Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 3006

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was in communique (and the CRUL), and it's a player's responsiblity to read the update pages in that. If they didn't, they suffer for it.
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djdood
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 2918
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Active Ingredient -

I want to take a second to compliment you for both the tone and content of your post. That level of civility is sometimes sorely lacking on the internet. You are one of the good ones.
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Lieutenant JG


Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djdood: Thanks for the compliment! Smile It is much appreciated!

Steve Cole: Unfortunately we will have to disagree both on a player having that responsibility and that they should “suffer” for not reading communiqués.

But regardless of our beliefs on who should suffer, the new player who doesn’t read communiqués is not the only one who would suffer. Yes, that may be the case in an official tournament situation where (1) there is a judge who would rule in the “well-read” player’s favor, and (2) there is more of an emphasis on winning than having a good game. (compared to pick-up games that is. I’m not saying winning is the only important thing in tournaments…)

In a pick-up game on FCOL, there would be no judge. Just two people having different sets of rules, with each one claiming their set of rules should be used. One player stating they have newer rules they found on the internet will in many cases not fly and arguments could ensue.

Also, if the rules difference suddenly becomes apparent and becomes a problem during the game, even if the new rule is agreed to be used, the game has been ruined for both players. As in my case, a game won simply because my opponent did not know the new rule is a hollow victory and somewhat of a waste of time – so BOTH players would suffer.

I apologize for the length of this post, but I couldn’t think of a shorter way to clarify what I was trying to say.

… and again, as mentioned in my first post, I do realize this problem will not occur very often.
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djdood
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
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Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a similar situation last week regarding damage allocation (in our case the rules haven't changed, there was a disagreement in interpretation). I'm lucky in that I only play "friendly" games - we agreed to finish the game with his interpretation and I would go research the rule later. As I expected, I was correct, but I didn't need to ruin an ongoing game to make my point - there's always another game in the future.
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Godeke
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I completely agree that in a tournament situation that the participants should be fully up to date with the rules and know which version is in force, in a pick up game I would have to disagree that anyone should "suffer" if they are using the rules that came with the game and someone else "springs" the fact there are new versions on them mid game.

Personally I would simply finish the game under the old rules in that case: as the host of my games, I'm the only one who reads the forums or knows there are updates... if I didn't make those updates *clear*, it is me who should "suffer". Anything less smells like a rules lawyer with a surprise witness.
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djdood
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Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to agree there.

I've played FedCom with about a dozen people locally now.

I am one of three who have ever been on this (or the other) board. I am the only one who comes here regularly. I'd lay money that I'm the only one who even knows about the CRUL.

With FedCom appealing to a new and different market, the people I'm seeing are different.

There are a few SFB-rejects like me who come from the "old school" crowd (the crowd that expects updates, erratta, addenda, changes in expansions, etc.).

The majority are "new crowd" people, for whom FedCom is their first "war game". They expect "the game" to be the game in the box [like Monopoly] - it doesn't change after they bought it. The idea of the rules changing after the product has been sold is foreign to them. I've gotten very strange looks when I tell folks that I have a newer set of rules from the CRUL. What they hear is "I have new rules from the internet".

Other than the "big rule change", I try to avoid bringing "new rules" up - to avoid disrupting game-time. If questions happen, I can answer them with the Reference Rulebook, but for the most part, it's hard enough getting people to play without them feeling like the ground is shifting underneath them.

Note, there is nothing "wrong" with FedCom, or the way it is being improved and tightened. I've just noticed my local folks aren't aclimated to that kind of thing.
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mkjohnson1
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Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:09 pm    Post subject: A bit Disappointed Reply with quote

While I've been playing SFB for over 23 years, I've recently started to get into Federation Commander. I've started to invest, to me, a decent amount in Federation Commander, and I find the idea that players who don't read up on the latest and most recent rules should suffer a bit disappointing.
While I understand that rules should be updated, tweaked and changed so often, to make the game fair and balanced, while removing any quirks; I don't think that people should have to check constantly for updates.
If you're a player in a tournament, of course. But what about the average player, or even the new player. I'd cringe if I had a conversation like this:

Opponent - "Sorry, you can't do that."
me - "Why not?"
Opponent - "That rule has changed"
me - "Wow, when did that happen?"
Opponent - "I downloaded the updates this morning"

Now, this is of course extreme, and I'm being picky, but it's still possible.
I've been playing a Looooong time, and there were no online updates 20 years ago... maybe because there was no online site 20 years ago.

There, of course, should be rule updates, and changes, but maybe on a broad schedule, or a subscription service. Just throwing it out there.
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djdood
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
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Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luckily, there's only been one "change" big enough to cause a discussion like that (and the change was to fix an exploit). There have been quite a few minor tweaks, but they are ignorable mid-game (if it's a friendly game).
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Nerroth
Captain


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1533
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps there could be some in-client update screen, or news ticker, which could inform players of any potential rule changes worth noting (or at least where to do to buy/download such)?
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Andromedan
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only problem I see with some in the client is that it is everybody's baseline is different.

I could assume that starting off that you do not have the latest Rulebook and tell people to read the CRUL and then keep an eye on the CRUL and as long as ADB keeps the CRUL up to date. The client can notify people.
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Nerroth
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1533
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe there could be a way for people to, as part of their registration, note which edition of the rulebook they have?

That way, two opposing players would be able to see what the other has, and try to work out some kind of compromise.
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