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Miniatures
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Rodak
Ensign


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, something just occured to me.

I grew up in the 80's. My first real Trek experience was the motion pictures. Wrath of Khan is what really got me into SFB. When I consider all the models in the Trek universe it is the ones from the movies I like the best (next gen is the worst by far). I think that would explain why I prefer the FASA line.

I wonder if the people most happy with the current line had thier first Trek experience with the original series.

Not sure why I did not consider that until now.
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Steve Cole
Site Admin


Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 3046

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Answers for Rodak:

"Geez dude are you calling me a woman? Are you serious? "

I never said any such thing. How you got that impression is beyond me. As I have said several times, the two new women employees (who are not gamers) saw the old metal CA and the new metal CC and thought that the new CC was better. So did I, and so did a heck of a lot of people. But that new CC was the most expensive ship we have done in two years and has yet to turn a profit.

"First of all I have no intention of engaging in a “flame war” with you."

If you read the entire sentence, I pointed out that that flame war had produced a very good thing and if new flame wars are going to produce new ships that damn cool then I'm all for more of them.

"I was only asking a question/giving an opinion that I have held for a long time. I apologize if I was wrong in assuming that this forum was intended for that purpose."

That kind of sarcasm has no place here. We certainly have wide ranging and free wheeling discussions. But you don't get to be insulting or sarcastic."

"Second, that’s great you have an engineering degree but I’m afraid the SF universe, like the Trek universe, is fantasy. I have a degree too, it is in legal studies. Great. "

Actually reading my post will show you the point I was trying to make.

"Third, FASA is out of business because you have a much better game than they did. Period."

Actually, it has a lot more to do with their contract. But thanks for acknowledging who did the better game.

"Fourth, I played SFB back in the 80’s. I am not new, I just have not been around in a while."

Welcome back.

"Fifth, Okay you would know better than me."

Maybe.

"Sixth, I understand. I was not saying you should run out and blow all your cash on a new line. But you’ll eventually re-do some mini’s right? A few here and there would be cool."

Money can be spent on new ships or re-dos. New ships sell better. I don't have any plans or vision for re-doing anything. Doesn't mean that we might not, sometime, under some circumstances. I would never assign a sculptor to re-do something. If one of them did and I thought his version was spectacular, I might.

"Seventh, I agree completely it is a matter of taste. I just don’t agree with your opinion about the SparrowHawk."

Nor do I agree with yours. Nor, apparenly, do many others. If a lot of people did, we'd change the ship, but most don't, so we won't.

"Sorry if my post made you feel insulted because that was not my intention."

Your original post did not make me feel insulted. Indeed, as those who read my reply know, I welcomed your input.

"I know how it feels to have your work criticized. But really, I would think you would be used to it by now."

I get some criticism and welcome it. Nothing produces good ideas like a good, and polite, argument that lacks insults.

"Just an idea here but have you ever considered a contest to have players come up with a miniature design? Not sure it is practical but I would be happy to mail in something original (and legal) that you could make a mold out of."

Feel free. I don't know that we need a contest, but new ideas are always welcome. Remember a few points I have made, however. New ships sell better than one ones. Re-dos of old ones sell worst of all. There are a lot of ways to add detail without just adding junk that has no purpose or point.
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Rodak
Ensign


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, thanks

You know as well as I do that some people will talk crazy to you in a forum like this and say things they would never say to someone face to face. I believe that is cowardly and it drives me nuts. I hope you understand why I was a bit defensive, I now realize I had no reason to be. Sorry

Truth is I have been a fan of yours and SFB since I was in Jr. High. For years I actually thought you guys were dead. Glad to see your not.

I think I see where you are coming from on mini design. I knew you were an engineer already. Seems like I recall there being several engineer types heavily involved in SFB back in the day. That is interesting because as we both agreed earlier when it comes to model star ships it is a matter of taste.

I know several guys who are engineers. They I think would agree with you about the models. They tend to look at fuction over anything else, where I look at a model like a peice of art I guess, I want it to look cool and I don't care about fuction. So, I think there is no right or wrong here.

I think you are on to something very special with Federation Commander. Once I get some models painted I plan to run a game at the local hobby store and maybe get a group going.

Thanks again and good luck!
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Steve Cole
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Joined: 11 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rodak: when you start gaming at the local store, be sure to sign up the store for organized league play which means Vanessa mails them a pile of signs, posters, bonus cards, and other cool stuff.

And I do look forward to your design for a new ship. Or even an old one. An old one would have less chance of being done, but your design for (say, a Lyran) could be useful in pointing out what you are trying to convey.

Do recall, however, the business situation. I have Lyrans already in production. When we do DISTANT KINGDOMS in the fall, there will be Lyran ships in squadron and border boxes. To cover the cost of re-doing the Lyrans, you have to convince me that we will sell nearly twice as many because of the new designs just because they ARE new designs. I don't know how you'd do that, I don't believe it would happen, but you're welcome to seek a way.
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Rodak
Ensign


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Rodak: when you start gaming at the local store, be sure to sign up the store for organized league play which means Vanessa mails them a pile of signs, posters, bonus cards, and other cool stuff.


I'll do that.

I am not convinced you will like anything I come up with and I sure couldn't make any predictions about sales. I will try to come up with some ideas and send them to you anyway. Even if you don't use them it would be cool just knowing your taking a look at it.
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Shadow
Ensign


Joined: 12 May 2007
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Cole wrote:
Random responses.
Fifth, lead DOES matter. Lots of details mean it's in lead. Pewter won't hold detail like lead does. Just a fact of metalurgy.


I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to call hooey on this statement. Don't get me wrong, I'm not making a claim about the FC ships at all, as I don't own nor have even seen any up close yet. However, the general quality and detail of miniatures has done nothing but gone UP over the years. It could very well be that the general talent of the sculptors has gone up, but today's pewter miniatures are far better looking and more detailed than the lead of 20 years ago, at least when done correctly. Check out most of Reaper's offerings. Is pewter a softer metal? Yeah, but it still holds detail fine.

No, I'm not an Engineer, and I don't work in the miniatures field or even do my own sculpting as a hobby. I do however own tons of miniatures, from back in the 'leaden age' of Grenadier and Ral Partha up to new pewters from Reaper, GZG, Iron Wind Metals and others.

Note: the above is my opinion as a (highly experienced) consumer, not a metalurgist, but from everything I've experienced, pewter holds detail just fine (and from my experience as well as, or better than lead), if it's sculpted into the model.

Also, this doesn't address aesthetics at all, that's a completely different topic and is much more subjective. I do agree however that often 'less is more' as far as doo-dads and greeblies.

Anyway, don't want to start an argument or anything, it's just that one statement caught me as false from my experience.
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Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4468
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, SVC is correct. Lead does indeed take and hold detail better than pewter.

You are coreect in that the detail level of current figures has gone up, and that's a combination of better sculptors and better casting techniques... but if Reaper could still cast out of lead, you'd see some truly amazing figures.
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wrongway klingon
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 46
Location: Cumbria, UK

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:
Actually, SVC is correct. Lead does indeed take and hold detail better than pewter.

You are coreect in that the detail level of current figures has gone up, and that's a combination of better sculptors and better casting techniques... but if Reaper could still cast out of lead, you'd see some truly amazing figures.


I do own some of the Leaden age figures and being high in lead means they are prone to lead rot. This is when acetic acid in the atmosphere attacks the surface of the metal and produces white lead, this also destroys surface detail. paint and varnish don't help because as they break down they release acetic acid, so does the wooden and cardboard boxes ( with foam inserts) they were stored in. The only prevention is adequate ventilation, if you open a box and can smell a faint amount of vinegar then it is high enough to damage the miniatures
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Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4468
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm. You learn something new every day. I've had older, lead figures turn a discolored white... but never knew what caused it.
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Paul B
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Odd, I thought the whole thing about lead was that it was more malleable. I've heard of people saying that old leaden Battletech figures would get damaged, etcetear if you pressed too hard on them or something like that. Basically, lead was softer, so it would seem that the details would be lost? I dunno.



And to add two cents to an OLD conversation. One of the guys said he was in love with the TMP ships, and thus the FASA ships. I think it all depends upon how a person grew up. If they grew up with a certain type of ship, they're more drawn it to than the others. I for instance played some PBeM game VGA Planets which used the FASA ships to represent ships in the game. So I've always been quite a fan of many FASA ships. But more recently, SFU miniatures have grown on me. Originally, I thought "wow, these have no detail, etcetera" but that's more/less a good thing because it looks like they belong in the show. The gorns for example, look like they could be from TOS. So for the game, I think the miniatures are quite good. Though, I still prefer FASA romulans over any rommies in the starline miniatures. But that's personal preference.
Many of the FASA miniatures look more TMP-era so you can't really compare them to whatever's in starline.

Even if people don't like some of the miniatures, they could build their core fleets with Starline figs like CCs, D7s, War Eagles, tholian scouts, etcetera and then supplement them with ships from other sources. A D7 is a D7.

If anything though, one thing you can't fault SFU for is staying true to the show. Compare it to something like Enterprise, or the new Star Wars trilogy, supposidely "older" shows which have ships which look far more advanced than anything in the originals. If people want old school Star Trek, they'll get it.
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wrongway klingon
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 46
Location: Cumbria, UK

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:
Hmmm. You learn something new every day. I've had older, lead figures turn a discolored white... but never knew what caused it.


I googled this one. It seems that there are a lot of museums that are having this problem. Their model ships have lead fittings which are corroding because they are kept in air-tight display cases. The acetic acid seems to act as a catalyst so the reaction continues until the whole piece is consumed. the painted figures I found were blistered like an old rusty car. White lead (lead carbonate) is toxic so handle with care.

I have removed the affected areas and resculpted lost parts and details and repainted. I will keep an eye on them to see if it re-occurs.
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Mike
Captain


Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1529
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted elsewhere a similar question, but are there smaller miniatures available than the app. 2" style for SFB/FedCom?
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Bolo_MK_XL
Commander


Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 783
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a line of mini's for SFB called Elites -- dont believe there was but a dozen or so different ones -- they were 1/2 or 1/3 the size of current minis ---
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Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4468
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, back in the '80s - there was a line of SFB miniature released designd for the original game map with the 5/8" hexes. The miniatures were about 1" long and there were probably only 15 to 20 different miniatures released.

Had other problems not arisen (aside from miniature production costs), TFG would probably have released others, but alas - it was not meant to be. These miniatures can still be found on ebay from time to time, most often listed as elite scale miniatures. If you endeavor to obtain any of them, be warned... the prices for the cruisers sometimes go right through the roof. Many of us old time gamers purchase the elite scale crusiers for use as PF's (Fast Patrol Ships) in our SFB collections, so bidding on those tends to get out of hand. I think the last set of Federation Heavy Cruisers I won went for 20 some odd dollars for one blister pack... as an example.

Although, I do have about a dozen different Dreadnoughts (in elite scale) that were practically given to me by one of the FLGS when they completely discontinued the entire SFU line. So look around, check ebay, check older game stores, even check-out yard sales and flea markets. I picked up the entire 1st edition Prime Directive stuff (rules / modules / GM screen / and sourcebooks) for a total of $5 at a yard sale a few years ago.

Good luck on your quest.
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djdood
Fleet Captain


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 2928
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad is right about looking around. One of my local FLGS' had a bunch of elite minis hanging on pegs on the back wall for years and years. I'm sure they would've been happy to sell them to me for a buck a pop if I had asked.
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