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Tugger
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:04 am    Post subject: Rules Review Reply with quote

Here's the questions I have on the rules

Which units from the general ships list count as warships?
You state that freighter and free traders dont, and that prime traders do.
Where do Armed Cutters, Q-Ships, ect. fall?

What is the movement of Monitors and light monitors? Are they available for purchase?
(Though it dosent look like we have FC Online support for those.)


Construction
You said you were removing/revising ship construction limits, but he rules still show a move cost limit and a one new ship per base limit.
(edit) I like there being a limit on ship size and number built at bases, it adds incentive to upgrade and build bases, make takeing out enemy bases very rewarding, but I do think that Starbases should be able to do 2 or 3 ships constructed a turn. (imho)


Base building limits
rules still say you have to transport EP to new base location.
Cost of the Heavy Freighter Shipyard? Same as Heavy Freighter?

Heavy Freighter shipyard also needed for initial build upgrade of bases? Or just for ones done during game?

Can you build a starbase in one turn if you have the EP to burn? (I suggest not, maybe max of 1 or two level improvement a turn...)

Also can't find a FCP cost for fighters, dont seem to have the right rulebook.


Well, thats about it, I answered some of my own questions by rereading the rules, so this is all thats left for now!

Tugger
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Dread_Lord
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 106
Location: Philadelphia, PA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I haven't heard back from Paul yet about the outstanding question, but I think that I am going to make a call on the question anyway (I'll email you about it Sir_Krotar). Tonight I will try and update the rules and send out my fleet. I am going to be out of town (although I should have email/Web access) but I am going to move out the end date for fleet selection until next Friday as I won't be able to react until then anyway.

I will include a more detailed description of war ships. Basically civilian ships aren't war ships and militar ships are. The only real difference is the ability to capture territory (because I don't want to see a swarm of cheep frieghters taking huge swaths of space).

I'm not certain what to do about Monitors. I don't want to see them in attack fleets, so I was thinking about giving them a move of 2 and they can only be used in fleets around a friendly planet. If folks want a Monitor I believe I can get the regular Monitor online.

As for construction limits, the limits on the type and number of ships still apply, only the EP spend is removed. I'll try to clean up that description.

I'm going to remove the stuff about the Shipyard. You can build a base on any planet you own. If you want a base in deep space you should use a Mobile Base.

I agree about upgrades a turn, although honestly if you can build a StarBase in one turn (or even a Battle Station) you have already won on this map. I'll include some verbage.

I'll include FCP for fighters.
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Tugger
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be just fine leaving Monitors out. If they are in, I think a speed of 2 would help limit their use to defence.

Have a great trip, will send in the fleet build soon now!
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terryoc
Captain


Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the limits on Monitors. Speed of 2, only allowed when defending planets, not bases (although I don't see any problems with defending a planet with a base orbiting it, the monitor can help cover the blind spot left by the planet).

Note also that the monitor ship card notes that the monitor has a max base speed of 8, IIRC. The Kzintis have a name for that in open space battles: "sitting duck". I believe that the plasma Empires have a similar term...
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Tugger
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:52 pm    Post subject: So... Reply with quote

Lacking further updates, and clearifications on which ships can capture territory, and the FPC of fighters, I will submit my fleet tonight or tomorrow, though I might submit 2, one if this rule goes this way, one if not.

Tugger
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Dread_Lord
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 106
Location: Philadelphia, PA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, sorry I thought I would have network access on this trip, but it turns out I didn't. I will try and get everything up to date tomorrow.

I got an answer on the question I was waiting for, so I am going to put it up to a vote. The question is whether to use Battleships or not. I got confirmation that they are allowed online (at one point I believe SVC said they weren't). To tell the truth, I think that they are just too big for this campaign so I wasn't going to include them, but I will go with majority rule on this point. If you would like to see Battlships allowed then vote yes, and if not then vote no. If you would prefer to abstain then that is fine, but I think that a tie will have to go to my gut instict and keep Heavy Dreadnoughts as the largest ships available.

Oh, and I see that there are some votes for no monitors, so unless I see some folks who want them, I am fine with leaving them out. I'm not sure they are a good include in FC anyway honestly for a campaign just tactics wise. Bases are in enough trouble without weasels.
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Tugger
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:29 am    Post subject: BB + MON Reply with quote

I am going to vote a conditional yes to BB.

If everyone has one available, online, then yes.
Otherwise, no.

For Mon, I am actually okay with using them, given their limitations.

Tugger
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terryoc
Captain


Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like BBs. They're expensive, so I can't see them being used to excess.

As far as monitors is concerned, it never occurred to me that they would be used offensively. If it was up to me, I'd allow them with the caveat that they may not be included in a battle force unless defending a planet, or if caught in open space, their weapons are non-functional. But that level of detail may be too fiddly.
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"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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Dread_Lord
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 106
Location: Philadelphia, PA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, everyone has access to a BB, with the exception of the Seltorians who have the 500 point Battle Wagon which I believe is based on the Hive ship (I'll have to buy the battleship supplement if we start using BBs).

Getting them online shouldn't be a problem. So far I see three for BBs and two against. The only thing to take into account is that Paul voted no, and he would have to use the BattleWagon as opposed to a normal BB. I'm not sure I am comfortable if Paul isn't comfortable.

Still, pinecone you have the last (and looks like deciding) vote.
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pinecone
Fleet Captain


Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1865
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to have to say yes. I feel (a little) guilty for taking a heavy DN, and think the other race should be allowed to take ships of comperable power.

And Andro, the Battlewagon is better than a BB Wink

Also, I'm wondering when the ship lists are due?
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Dread_Lord
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 106
Location: Philadelphia, PA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so that is 4 yes to 2 no for Battleships, so they will be included and available. I will have to work with Paul to get them uploaded, but that shouldn't be a problem. I am working on the next version of the rules right now (hopefully with answers to the other questions) and I will include BB data as well as Fighters.

Oh, as to deadlines, due to the outstanding questions, and me being silent for a week, let's try for this Friday. I will get my fleet out tonight. Robert, I haven't looked at your fleet, but if you want to reload your choices after tonights rules update, that is cool (or if you are happy with as is - that is cool too)
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Dread_Lord
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 106
Location: Philadelphia, PA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I have the next version of the rules out here:

http://home.comcast.net/~hillpe/fc/FC_Campaign.pdf

Here are the highlights:

* Revamped the retreat rules again. I realized that as they were stated they wouldn't work. Take a close look at them though, as i am a bit concerned they will bog down the Movement phase a bit, but I was concerned about a few annoying tactics such as "never allowing a fight" and "trying to stop an attack fleet with a single frigate". Let me know what you think, and if you have a better idea that would be cool and welcomed.
* Added FCP for Fighters
* Added stats for Battleships
* Added Movement and rules for Monitors and Mobile Bases
* Added rules for Non-Aggression pacts
* Added rules for two (or more) on one (or more) fights
* Removed Convoy and Mauraders and upgraded the EPs for planets
* Added rules for moving EPs to other powers
* Added rules for upgrading/building bases (removed heavy freighter rules) and a few other tid bits like a Star Base can build 2 ships
* Added definition of ships that can take territory. Basically it is a Frigate or higher. I don't want a swarm of little ships taking terriory which would be tedious to resolve.

Um, I think that is it. Pretty big update so please check them out for typos/bad ideas/missing stuff.

I will be sending out my fleet in an hour or so. Unless something else major comes up let's try to get the fleets in by Friday, and start thinking about your build orders. You all get 170 this round.


Last edited by Dread_Lord on Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dread_Lord
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 106
Location: Philadelphia, PA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and one thing that I wanted to mention before we get to turn 1. I will have to ask everyone to be patient with me. I've run this campaign before for a turn or two but never for a full campaign and I wouldn't consider these rules to be anything other then a beta.

Once the game starts in ernest I won't change anything without a vote, but please be kind if something goes wrong with the rules.
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Tugger
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for running it, and if there are bumps along the way, well, we all had a chance to read the rules and chime in before it got started. I dont doubt that we will find and fix a few things as we go along.
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pinecone
Fleet Captain


Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1865
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tugger wrote:
Thanks for running it, and if there are bumps along the way, well, we all had a chance to read the rules and chime in before it got started. I dont doubt that we will find and fix a few things as we go along.


I second this. Thanks so much Dread Lord.
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