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Attacking a Starbase
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terryoc
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Joined: 07 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Playing this out on the map, I have discovered another issue, namely, that at Range 2 you can't get five ships (4xNCL, DW) to all fire on the same shield in the same impulse. The rules limit fire from one hex to three units, so you must split your force into two hexes (e.g. 3xNCL in one hex, and NCL, DW) in another). Now, let's assume the SB is in hex 54 on the large scale hexes, and the 3xNCL are in hex 56 and the others in hex 45. Both are at range 2 on the base, but the DW & NCL stack are on a split shield boundary, so the base can choose to take their fire on a different shield. Worse, the DW & NCL stack are not centrelined on the SB, so that's 3xPh-1 and 2xPh-3 less firing on the SB.

If instead we assume that one stack (perhaps the 3xNCL stack) is instead at Range 1 with the other two behind it, they can all fire on the same shield but that means in the previous impulse they were, at furthest, at Range 5 giving the SB a range 5 pre-emptive shot, or if the SB waits until it sees the whites of the attackers' eyes, it's firing it's overloaded photons with guaranteed hits. One option the SB has is to grab one of the NCLs with a tractor beam and hold it over the turn break.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Fed attack looked interesting cos it seemed to be quite tight, so I've started looking at it a bit more to work out whether the Sb can stop it, or will the feds readily win. As I start typing this (and working the maths as I go) I'm not sure what the final result will be. Obvioulsy gaming it would be the best way (several games to get a good idea).

A few points about what you've added since though, given the basic sceanrio you outlined. I realise you could modify these, but they go back to what I said earlier if you don't work it out properly before hand you may lose the game before you realise that you made the misjudgement, as a SB is not a thing to be in front of when you realise that you mistimed the attack run. Realising you should have started the attack run a hex closer is not something you can just adjust to after the fact.

Starting at range 26 as stated, to avoid any fire prior to the attack run, and trying to get to range 1.

Looking at the NCLs, as they are the most power constrained and the main part of the force. The mimumum required power is 18.75, i.e. speed 24 and 1 accel. That counts your range down as

1 = 23 (2 photons/ph4s to use or lose)
2 = 20
3 = 17
4 = 14
5 = 11 (2 photons/ph4 to use or lose)
6 = 8
7 = 5
8 = 2

and the accel at some point.

Holding 4 OL = 8 power.
Firing all Phasers = 7 power.

Of course only 3 ships can fire from range 1, the other 2 will have to go range 2.
If it works then your final damage will be on average (averaged photon damage rather than gues how many miss at range 2) : 463

Total power = 33.75, you have no power spare for any other action, battery, decel or another accel etc. Also a single slip will drop your final range to 2.


Firing attacker drones
At that speed it is not possible to also get a drone launch in as well that will also impact on the same turn. To do that you must accelerate at least twice, you can drop a ph3 to do that. Giving up 13 damage for a possible (big question mark) 60. They could just as well launch and accept they arrive at the start of the next turn, if the attackers did the job properly it shouln't make to much difference.

If you want the drones to arrive after you have fired (to hit after defensive systems have been taken out) then you need to direct fire on imp 7, which presumably means at least 3 accels to get to range 2, or 4 accels to get to range 1. With the drones hitting on imp 8. In other words more sacrificed phasers for the chance of drone hits.

Trying to hop from range 6 to 2:

Means one of 2 things, you gave up on reaching range 1 or spent more power.

With the current speed 25 you can slip out and back in early in the turn to end at 6 on impulse 7 then accelerate to 2 for impulse 8. Ther'es possibly little point planning on getting to 1 given that you will be plastered at 2 anyway if you weren't hit at 6.
That drops your expected full damage to: 387

If you do want have the option of reaching 1 anyway, and keeping the SB guessing, you must accelerate twice by impulse 6 to reach range 6, then you can go to 3 and 1 (or 4 and 1) with a slip in and out. That will also allow the drone launch noted above, however, at that point a straight hop 6 -> 2 will cost you a further accel and an additional phaser 1 shot per ship doing that. Assuming 3 ships did that jump to 2 - cos the other 2 can't fire from there at the same time anyway (so fire at 3), you could carry on with them but I'm assuming not for the damage figure.
That drops your expected full damage to: 361 (plus 5 drones)

On the face of it going for range 6 to reduce the amount of damage you might take at range 5 looks like giving up more damage than you are likely to save.


'Me To'

Whether you can force a 'me to' shot is somewhat dependent on the mind of the other guy, and how much you think he is willing to take chances. In the following scenarios the brackets is the choose NOT to 'me to' and carry on to fire whatever weapons survived on the next impulse.

The scenario we discussed earlier, range 5 and 3 NCLs making the choice, with the others carrying on to range 1.
That drops your expected full damage to: 341 (310)

Range 4 and 3 NCLs making the choice, with the others carrying on to range 1.
That drops your expected full damage to: 379 (282)

Range 6 and 3 NCLs making the choice, with the others carrying on to range 2.
That drops your expected full damage to: 290 (281)

Range 6 and 2 NCLs making the choice, with the others carrying on to range 2.
That drops your expected full damage to: 333 (263)


I think we see here that there realy is little point in looking for the range 6 -> 2 jump, at least before considering other stuff going on that might affect the decision.


Sb Drones

Interesting question about what to do with them. Launch early and the feds presumably launch their drones at them. If the feds launch drones in an attack then they can launch at them (unless it is to late, and I assume the attacker would hold back for that reason). Unless you know the player on the other side, it's hard to know what he may do as well as a reaction. Its useful first to know what happens if 6 drones hit a ship, and non are stopped. In terms of median averages (you'll do this amount of hits or more 50% of the time)

NCL: 5 phasers, 1 drone, 2 torps, 14 power systems.
DW: 6 phasers (all), 1 drone, 2 torps, 21 power systems. (more likely to do the 2 torp hits as well).

The DW is hit harder, but the NCL is the one the SB would ideally like to veer away or fire before getting hit.

Unless something else presents itself, the ideal launch point appears to be impulse 7, against any ship still to fire. If it carries forward then nothing other than the target can stop the drones with its own weapons, and counter drones can't be launched at them at the same time. The target will be able to counter the drones with phasers, but they are reducing the damage the SB will take. The target can ensure a no internals with 5 phasers, 2ph3 an 3ph1 (which is what it would probably have lost and more if it didn't stop them anyway).

That docks 23 damage off the range 1 damage it would have done. Given that hanging back at range 4 would cost far more damage it seems likely they will just take the drones head on.

suicide shuttles

Slow and expensive to arm to a level where an attacker will think about changing plan. Normally they are easy to avoid, however, the stated Fed attack run leaves little room for evasive action, so any evasion is costing damage due to increased range or due to extra accels to pull back into range. Launching early will likely allow the fed to slip past costing just 1 accel and a lost phaser, launching at imp 7 might force the ship that was going to range 1 to hold to range 2, An impulse 6 launch looks best, as they will definatly impact any target trying to get to range 1 or 2. If he stays back at range 3 you save an average 33 damage from an NCL or 26 from the DW. So putting in more power than that probably isn't worth it as you could just as well used it for batteries and guaranteed damage stopping. 20 power (2 per shuttle) would be 60 damage, which given how difficult they are to stop at impact should make a lot of captains hold at range 3. Fired at the NCL that nets about 13 damage saving on average.

The beauty of an impulse 6 launch is that a naive Fed captain might carry on to range to range 4 (which is best for the 'me to' effect) and launch drones to try and kill 5 shuttles. At that point he is forced to range 3 or he faces effective doom as the drones follow the shuttles in.

Firing suicides at the NCL and drones at the DW seems to drop the most damage, about 23 + 13.


summary

I may well have missed slightly different twists that things could have taken, and other players, of course, may have totally different ideas about how they or others would react, but...

I can't think of anything better for the given fed tactic than to shoot at range 4-6, which ever presents itself, shoot at 3 NCLs, split: 4 ph4 at weapons, 4 ph4 at weapons, and 8 OL photons. launch 6 drones at the DW on imp 7 and 10 suicides at the last NCL on imp 6.

Power:
24 to hold the overloads, only 8 will get used, but you have to assume that you need to hold them all at the turn start, as you don't know for definate that fed will dive in on this turn or wait a turn, so you can't be sure which 8 will be needed at that point.

24 ph4s. 2 will fire at 23, and 2 will fire at range 11 (barring accels) on the ship you intend to photon. This averages about 12 damage, and helps compensate for the inability to direct at weapons. The attack run doesn't allow for changing shields so that isn't an issue.

20 for suicides.

49-52 for batteries in all likely hood. The 'me to' fire on impulse 7 could do around 30 internals from range 4, range 5 and 6 is unlikley to do any bar burnthrough.

Optional:
2 for transporters - Enough transporters should survive to board and make a credible attempt to capture any ship with a down shield in range 5. Keep 2 back if this is the case.
1 for a tractor. If an attacker is at range 1 he is probably lacking power, you will probably have a few tractors left and want the option at the start of next turn to hold him for repaired/surviving ph4s to maul.


Assuming the fed goes for what appears, as far as I can see, the most effective version of that attack run he faces a total ~346 damage. - 150ish in battery/shield/armor or 190ish internals. Probably 5 drones about to impact, but these should not be an immediate problem as the SB is unlikely to be short of tractors yet. The SB has 12 repair which can bring back 3 ph4, or extra power etc.

I can't work out the internal spread from multiple random sources, but it is generally worse (in terms of critical systems) than a single volley due the extra tries at rolling 1 or 6 with the odd bits of damage. 190 as a single volley would usually leave a couple of ph4s, 6 torps left and reasonable bit of power, 4 OL torps are still to rotate round.

The fed attacker probably has 2 NCLs badly damaged, 1 crippled and 1 DW with a knackered front shield. I imagine 1 attacking ship will be lost on the following turn.

Looking at it this closely I can't make my mind up at this point. The SB is looking a bit anemic on the weapons front, but the feds are not looking great either. The SB still has ~280 internals left (It isn't even technically crippled yet!). The damaged Fed ships will be struggling to keep up with rotation of the SB, which could be an issue if they have to kill another 60 point shield. Any Fed ship at range 5 or less at the end of imp 1 is liable for another boarding action, and the SB probably still has more Transporters than the attack ships have marines.


PS again the SB sensors would make this really, really hard for the attacker.


Last edited by storeylf on Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
storeylf wrote:
If you really are going to sit back there, then the SB can go for full survival mode


Of course you better hope you don't roll bad on a photon volley...


meaningless in the long run, there will be good turns and bad turns, on good turns you have excess power to compensate for the bad turns. On the other hand you could use another 3 power a turn firing 6 photons saving 12 power on batteries on almost every turn. There will be the odd leaker, but most turns net you 9 additional power which with the 8 excess you already had covers most eventualities.

Quote:
The easy counter is to simply move to 15 hexes and keep doing the same thing.


Sounds good, at first glance this looks to be a good spot, aginst a fed SB anyway.


Quote:

I don't think you can reasonably expect any mid range ph4 damage to accrue since the attacker can simply leave that damaged ship 1 hex behind the others.


Achieving what? You increased the range and reduced your damage for a few points of long range weapon fire which couldn't be saved for later anyway, sounds a good investment for the SB.


Re: range 6
Quote:

I think the point is moot since the Fed ships can jump from range 6 to range 2 and at range 6, you can't expect enough damage from just 8 PH4 to take out enough weapons from 2 NCLs. Your best bet is to either concentrate on 2 ships, or wait for the 2 hex shot. In either case, the SB gets gutted.


See my previous post.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played this one out. I assumed average damage for all attack rolls to minimize the results of chance. I did roll hit locations however, since averaging that would be very messy and lead to fractional boxes of damage.

Here are the results:

Pregame:
SB preloads photons, using 24 power. Has 76 pwr + 20 batteries
4 NCLs and 1 DW preload photons.

Turn 1:
SB loads photons and overloads them. Cost is 72 pwr. Base has 44 pwr in batteries.

4 NCLs and 1 DW fully overloads photons and stays 26 hexes away from base, 1 hex off of a hex row to the base. Each ship has 2 pwr in batteries. Range is 26.

Turn 2:
imp 1: Each NCL spends 26 pwr for 24 base spd plus holding overloaded photons. DW spends 18 pwr for the same. NCLs have 8 pwr and DW has 7 pwr left. SB spends 24 pwr to hold overloads. SB has 96 pwr left.

All 5 ships move as a stack to range 23. Base fires 2 PH4 at a NCL at the cost of 4 pwr since otherwise those ph4 would rotate away. 3 damage done to NCL. SB has 93 pwr left. NCL has 27 left on #1 shield.

imp2: All ships move to range 20. SB rotates. No shots.

imp3: All ships move to range 17. No shots.

imp4: All ships move to range 14. No shots.

imp 5: All ships acc and move to range 10. NCLs have 7.25 pwr and DW has 6.5 pwr. SB fires 2 PH4 at damaged CL since otherwise they will rotate away. 13 damage. SB uses 4 pwr and has 92 pwr left. CL has 14 left on #1 shield.

imp6: SB rotates. All ships except damaged one acc to range 6. Dmg ship dec twice and goes to range 9. NCLs have 6.5 pwr and DW has 6 pwr. Dmg NCL has 5.75 pwr.

At this point, SB fires 6 PH4 at 1 NCL and 2 PH4+8 photons at 2nd NCL at 6 hexes. Those 2 fire back with 8 photons plus 8 LS and FH ph1 at SB. Other ships don't fire. The 6 PH4 at 1 ship are targeted at weapons. SB uses 16 pwr and has 76 pwr left. The 2 firing CLs spend 4 each and have 2.5 pwr left.

Results: The 6 PH4 at 1 ship does 77 damage. After 1 battery, it's 46 internal hits targetted on weapons.

ship loses 4 photons, 7 phasers, 10 hull, 8 pwr, 2 btty, 1 control, 10 system boxes (including a rare probe hit), and 3 frame (taken to save the last RS phaser 1 and twice to save drone rack). 1 hit is lost because skip damage is lost from directed fire. This ship has 1.5 pwr left.

The 2 PH4 plus 8 photons fired at 2nd ship does 90 damage. After 1 battery, it's 59 internal hits.

Results: 3 torps, 5 phasers, 24 pwr, 2 battery, 2 control, 10 hull, 11 systems, and 2 frame (taken twice to save drone rack). Ship has 1.5 pwr left.

8 photons plus 8 ph1 at 6 hex range does 81 damage, or 79+2 burnthrough. SB batteries 44 and takes 25 damage to shield. Burnthrough does phaser and lab. Phaser is taken on PH3 facing away from ships. SB has 32 power left.

All drones are launched. The SB has all drones targetted at DW. 4 drones are 6 away from SB and 1 is 9 away from SB.

impulse 7. All ships move 3 hexes except NCL at 9 hexes who accelerates. That NCL has 5 pwr left and is at 5 range. All other ships are at 3 hexes range. 6 drones impact DW 1 shield and 4 drones are 3 away from SB and 1 drone is 6 away. DW fires 3 PH1 and 2 PH3 and kills 4 drones. 2 impact the shield and does 23 plus a burnthrough. The BT is a lab. #1 shield has 1 box left. DW has 2 pwr left.

impulse 8: 2 crippled NCLs plus 1 good NCL go to 0 range. DW dec and goes to 1 hex range. The NCL at 5 hexes acc and is at 1 hex range. The DW has 1.5 pwr left and the NCL has 4.25 pwr left. 4 drones impact and 1 drone is at 3 hex range. All ships fire everything.
ADDs plus 4 ph3 take out all 4 drones (in retrospect, it's probably better for the attackers to time it so the drones hit impulse 1 of next turn after ADDs and PH3 are dead). That's 2 more power for the SB and it has 30 pwr left.

The ships have 11 photons plus 8 PH1 at 0 range plus 1 ph3 at 0 range plus 5 ph1 at 1 range. This is 258 damage of which 30 gets batteried. After 35 remaining shields plus 40 armor, this is 153 internal hits. The results are:

5 PH3, 7 PH4, 6 drones, 7 torpedoes, 33 power, 11 battery, 4 control, 48 hull, 33 systems.

Turn 3:All ships declare a 0 baseline speed. Crippled NCLs repair 1 PH1 each, and DW repairs lab. SB repairs 3 PH4, and now has 8 facing ships. SB has 43 power. All ships plus SB shift 5 damage to another shield.

At 0 range, 1 NCL has 32 power and is untouched. 1 NCL has 24 pwr and 2 ph1 left. 1 NCL has 8 pwr and 4 ph1 left.

At 1 range, the DW and NCL have no internal hits although both have low shields. Everybody who has torpedoes preloads, except the SB who only preloads 1, expecting all the others to die.

Impulse 1: Both sides fire everything.
The attackers have 12 PH1 and 2 PH3 at 0 range. They have 10 ph1 and 4 ph3 at 1 range. This is 154 damage, or 124 after 25 batteries and 5 shields. I'm going to state what's remaining on the SB since it's easier than stating what's been killed.

1 PH4, 1 Drone, 1 Photon, 4 frame (12 frame total were taken to save the PH4, photon, and Drone). 13 control, 16 power, 8 system, and lots of Cargo.

The SB fires 4 PH4 at DW with 6 shields 1 hex away, and 2 at each crippled cruiser. This kills each cruiser and does 73 to DW. The DW has 6 shields and batteries 2 so 65 internal hits. This is slightly more boxes than the ship has so it too dies. (This may be slightly suboptimal, but I figured the SB was dying anyway and wanted 3 mostly guaranteed kills) SB launches 1 drone and 2 surviving NCLs launch 2 drones. The remaining drone from last turn does 12 damage and takes out 2 more power and 2 labs plus padding.

The remaining 2 ships position themselves to face the down shield of the SB and launch drones for 24 damage. This takes out 1 frame, 1 torpedo (no more frame left to sacrifice), 10 power, and unimportant stuff.

Amazingly, the SB still has its last PH4 and drone. The base has 1 drone, 1 PH4, and 4 power left. The Base's drone does 9 (non-facing) shield, 2 battery, and 1 burnthrough which is repaired at the end of the turn. The base repairs 2 PH4, 1 power, and a hull. 2 remaining ships face down shield of base.

Turn 4: All ships declare 0 baseline speed. 2 NCLs fire 8 fully overloaded photons, 10 PH1, and 4 PH3. The Base fires 2 full PH4, and 1 PH4 as a PH1 since that's all the power it has. The NCLs do 208 damage minus 5 shields for a total of 203 internals. I don't bother rolling the dice.
The SB does 43 pts minus 24 shields and 2 battery for 17 internals. This leaves 2 good ships and a dead SB.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After actually playing it out and seeing the severe power crunch that the Fed has, I'm thinking it might be better for the Fed to evasive maneuver at the end of a turn to range 18. From there, you have much more flexibility in setting up your approach and have a bigger margin of error to deal with what the SB throws at you, at the cost of 2 pts of net damage from 4 PH4 after batteries that will immediately be rotated to another shield.

I also forgot that both sides could've fired probes as weapons on turn 3.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
suicide shuttles

Slow and expensive to arm to a level where an attacker will think about changing plan. Normally they are easy to avoid, however, the stated Fed attack run leaves little room for evasive action, so any evasion is costing damage due to increased range or due to extra accels to pull back into range. Launching early will likely allow the fed to slip past costing just 1 accel and a lost phaser, launching at imp 7 might force the ship that was going to range 1 to hold to range 2, An impulse 6 launch looks best, as they will definatly impact any target trying to get to range 1 or 2. If he stays back at range 3 you save an average 33 damage from an NCL or 26 from the DW. So putting in more power than that probably isn't worth it as you could just as well used it for batteries and guaranteed damage stopping. 20 power (2 per shuttle) would be 60 damage, which given how difficult they are to stop at impact should make a lot of captains hold at range 3. Fired at the NCL that nets about 13 damage saving on average.

The beauty of an impulse 6 launch is that a naive Fed captain might carry on to range to range 4 (which is best for the 'me to' effect) and launch drones to try and kill 5 shuttles. At that point he is forced to range 3 or he faces effective doom as the drones follow the shuttles in.

Firing suicides at the NCL and drones at the DW seems to drop the most damage, about 23 + 13.



I didn't use suicides in my play, but I'm not necessarily sure they would've helped the SB, at least at the level you present (20 power for 60 damage). The shuttles would hit impulse 8 if launched at 6 given my scenario. They do 30 internals to a fresh NCL (there's no point in hitting a crippled NCL which has already fired). A timely slip by the NCL might allow it to take the damage on an off shield. 30 non-directed internals is 1 photon, 2.5 phasers, and 6 power on average.

In exchange for this, the base takes 20 more internals since there is less battery reinforcement. This averages .67 photons, 1.67 phaser 4s, and 4 power extra to the base. Each PH4 is HUGE. In my playing, the SB had just enough PH4 left to allow 8 of them to fire impulse 1 of the next turn. The weakness of the SB is that there is very little padding for phaser hits. Once you get by the 6 PH3, every additional phaser hit will be on a PH4 until the final one when you can start taking frame damage.

In summary, I don't think trading 1.67 PH4 plus 4 power is a good trade for 1 photon, 6 power, 2 ph3, and .5 ph1 on average.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may have been better for the SB not to overload some photons (the ones that would rotate out of arc) and fire them along with the phaser-4s.

Also, I'm not quite sure that I understand how phaser-4s are going out of arc on Impulse 2. At least on the BATS, all the phasers have 270-degree arcs, so it should take two rotations to put a phaser-4 out of arc, unless the attacker is attacking along one of the "hex rows of death" that radiate out from the #1, #3 and #5 shields. In that case, the SB should just hold fire until the second rotation which will allow the SB to fire all of its weapons at once.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:

I didn't use suicides in my play, but I'm not necessarily sure they would've helped the SB, at least at the level you present (20 power for 60 damage). The shuttles would hit impulse 8 if launched at 6 given my scenario. They do 30 internals to a fresh NCL (there's no point in hitting a crippled NCL which has already fired). A timely slip by the NCL might allow it to take the damage on an off shield. 30 non-directed internals is 1 photon, 2.5 phasers, and 6 power on average.

In exchange for this, the base takes 20 more internals since there is less battery reinforcement. This averages .67 photons, 1.67 phaser 4s, and 4 power extra to the base. Each PH4 is HUGE. In my playing, the SB had just enough PH4 left to allow 8 of them to fire impulse 1 of the next turn. The weakness of the SB is that there is very little padding for phaser hits. Once you get by the 6 PH3, every additional phaser hit will be on a PH4 until the final one when you can start taking frame damage.

In summary, I don't think trading 1.67 PH4 plus 4 power is a good trade for 1 photon, 6 power, 2 ph3, and .5 ph1 on average.


I only have time for a quick reply, but even in that scenario 20 power (and 20 more internals) has saved you 24-30 damage by taking out the weapons before they get to fire, so you take less damage not more. You also take less damage next turn. If the NCL did take it on the front that means it has a facing down shield and transporters can be used to either board to capture or hit and run. Also if you slip and take it on another shield then I think you take 6 more internal damage? (can't remember the NCL shields).

sacrificing 20 battery to save 24-30 and inflict moderate damage on the good NCL is a pretty good exchange by that point. The only way the NCL can avoid the shuttles is to stay at range 3, which saves the SB even more damage compared to the range 0 volley, as they will always get anything ending next to them (i.e. range 0, 1 or 2)


PS: to above poster about rotation, every rotation takes 2 ph4 out of arc and brings 2 into arc.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the suicide shuttles explode before the NCL gets to fire? I don't have my RB handy. If they do, then the NCL can stay at 3 hexes and fire its PH1 targetted at weapons on the SB and perhaps 2 ph3 to kill a shuttle. The next turn, it has full power and can reach range 0 to the SB and go around the shuttles since the shuttles are at range 2 from the SB at this point. At this point it fires 4 overloaded photons plus all phasers at the SB on impulse 1 before the base rotates. The full damage is done, but the base probably has a few more weapons on that turn to fire back.

Incidentally, I made a few mistakes on my simulation since it was fairly tedious and I wanted to get it done relatively quickly.

1) I didn't quite get the power numbers for the SB correct. The SB should've been spending a little more power than I was accounting for.

2) The first strike should've taken down 35 shields instead of 25 (79-44). This should've added 10 internal hits later.

3) For the crippled NCL's 2nd phaser strikes, I should've targeted weapons on the SB. That would add a decent chance of taking out another phaser 4.

4) I should've fired each ship individually instead of counting all internals and rolling them all at once. This probably would've done a little more phaser damage since multiple smaller volleys are better for weapons than fewer large volleys. And each extra PH4 taken out reduces damage by about 18 pts on average for the next turn.

5) Playing optimally, I should've launched drones so they impact on impulse 1 of turn 3. That would've added 48 internals to the SB.

6) On turn 3, I should've had all attackers target weapons (This probably would've killed all weapons since).

7) I should've had the crippled NCLs use probes as weapons. I should've had the SB use probes as weapons.

One of the things I'm taking from this is that a small shift can drastically change the results. I killed 12 phasers out of 153 internals from the big volley. It's conceivable that I only kill 9 or up to all but 1. This would have a dramatic change in the expected damage that the SB can inflict during the next turn. Plus I was assuming average damage from all attacks. With overloaded photons, a few hits above or below the average can have dramatic results one way or the other.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol - The question about rotation made me re check the arcs etc and what was going on. I was assuming that the attacker makes the run OFF the hex splines, so that he is only facing at best 8 of each heavy weapon on the way in. But of course he has to go onto the hex splines at range 2 or 1 (2 to avoid split shield boundary), at which point 10 of each heavy weapons are in arc.

That of course means it is not really worth the longer range fire, but instead keep those ph4s for close in blasting.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another objection I have to this scenario is that the attacking force is somewhat cheesy. 4xNCL 1xDW packs the maximum number of photons you can get in a 600-point force. The NCL is probably somewhat underpriced; the SB is definitely overpriced. That skews the results somewhat IMO. A more "realistic" force of mixed hulls would create a more even result.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I don't have a problem with the force, as it is intended to be a worst/best case scenario just to see what happens. As such, it is definitely a useful exercise. At that point, it can always be scaled back to see if a less optimized force can be defeated by the SB. (Again, when dealing with "realistic forces", it has already been pointed out that there will almost never be a SB trying to defend itself all alone.)
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, can the Fed SB control 12 seeking weapons? I'm thinking it does, but I can't seem to find it anywhere.

If it can control 12, then it will be limited to 6 suicide freighters [Mod: he meant suicide shuttles] since it also has 6 drones in flight. Unless it launches drones early which has its own downsides.

A 12 weapon limit severely hurts a Kzinti SB since it has 12 drone racks. It might be the weakest SB with this limitation.

An optimized force to attack a SB makes perfect sense to me. Admirals spend lots of time planning these scenarios and running simulations and war games. They'll send the best ships for the missions. For a SB assault, it makes sense that they'll maximize the number of photons sent. For raiding shipping lanes and cutting supply lines, it makes sense that they would send fast cruisers. For a meeting engagement against another fleet, it makes sense that they'll send a regular balanced fleet. Etc.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a summary:

For attacking a Fed SB:

1) Kzinti Drone frigate fleet. Can kill the SB in maybe 3 turns.

1) Tholian with WC fleet. With 35 PH1 and 18 PH3 total, it'll wear down the SB pretty quickly. It might take awhile since it's best bet is to sit in place while the SB will constantly rotate and present new shields.

2) Gorn Fleet. Can probably kill the SB in 6 turns with no losses or maybe 3 turns if it's willing to lose a ship.

3) Romulan Fleet. Can probably kill the SB in 9 turns with no losses or maybe 6 turns if it's willing to lose a ship.

4) 6 Kzinti CLs. Will take awhile, but should eventually wear down the SB.

5) 3 Hydran Rangers plus 26 Stingers. Should kill the SB in 1-2 turns but will lose most if not all its fighters in the process. Probably won't lose a ship since the SB is busy killing fighters.

6) 4 NCL + DW fleet. Will probably win, but some bad luck with photons or weapon hits could swing the battle. Will definitely either get all ships crippled, or 2-3 ships dead in the process.

7) ISC fleet. I don't know too much about them, but I'm guessing PPDs plus plasma should be able to do the trick.

Some weak SB assault races are:

1) Lyrans/Seltorians. No seeking weapons and only disrupters or particle cannons for heavy weapons which can't do damage quick enough. You probably need at least 1000 pts of these to successfully attack a SB, and maybe not even then.

2) Klingon/Kzinti fleets not optimized with drones. Same problem as Lyrans/Seltorians except they have drones to draw fire from the SB. I'm guessing 800 pts would be needed for the assault.

3) Hydran hellbore fleet without stingers. Spreading damage through multiple shields is bad against a SB and hellbores are expensive. I'm guessing 800 pts of ships needed.

I'm unsure about the following:

1) Orions. Their best bet seems to be to load up with plasma and follow Gorn/Romulan tactics. But I'm not sure whether they can produce enough plasma to overload the SB.

2) Hydran fusion fleet without stingers. They might be able to pull off what the Fed fleet did. 6 Mongols can do a lot of damage at short range with gatlings and overloaded fusions.

3) WYN. I don't know enough about them, but I think they fall into the same camp as Klingons.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
If it can control 12, then it will be limited to 6 suicide freighters since it also has 6 drones in flight. Unless it launches drones early which has its own downsides.


Rofl - launching suicide freighters, I wish Laughing

Yes I had remembered about the 12 limit, but in the earlier post I had gone through so many permutations I had forgot they were out at the same time.




As to running feds in to raech range 6 on impulse 6 I still think that is bad.

No need to fire at that point, wait another impulse, at range 2 or 3 the SB can kill the DW (barring bad luck) and cripple 2 NCLs (removing pretty much all weapons). They will 'me to' shoot. At range 3 they will just take down the shield and armor, and at range 2 they do about 40-50 internals.

That still leaves 2 photons and 2 ph4, plus drones and shuttles. If you went to range 2 then the extra weapons also fire at that point at another NCL, with about enough damage to cripple it, whilst taking about another 77 internals in return. Followed up by around 13 remaining transporters as a capture attempt (looking good against 8 marines). There are 8 shuttles left on average and 4 drones, which just works out nice to launch at the remaining NCL, making closing any further bad for it.

I still think the simple charge through range 4 or 5 looks better for the attacker.
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