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What Can Beat the Orion Light Raider for the Points?
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ryanakent
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Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 8
Location: San Rafael, CA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got the updated rules yesterday and plan on playing the Tholian Destroyer tonight. My son will be in for a rude awakening. Twisted Evil

I really like the Hydrans as a race, so I think I will try that as well.

The LDR look like they also suit my style of play. I'll have to give them a go as well.
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Savedfromwhat
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck with the destroyer it is one of my favorite ships
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ryanakent
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Joined: 17 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was crushed. My son decided to use 3 plsam F's this time. We traded fire at range 6 at the end of the 1st turn. Each doing about 10 points. His stealth bonus gave him a decided edge at that range. He was able to maneuver behind me and hit my damaged shield at close range with 2 carronades and 3 ph1s. It did a lot of damage. I had to HET for a return shot which did not do enough. Then he got lucky on hit and run raids and killed 2 ph1s. I only had 2 ph1's left and conceded. His maneuver and stealth combined to crush my unskilled play.

I tried the LDR Cheeta Frigate. He fired 3 carronades and 3 ph1s at range 5 and did 20 internals through my front shield. then he ran. I only had 2 gatlings left and conceded.

I will try the Tholian again and use erratic maneuvering until I am at close range.
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Savedfromwhat
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't let him get to range 5 if he is using plasma F's. Try to play the long game And saber dance until you weaken his shields. You have more phaser 1's and the disrupters to give you a long range edge.
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ryanakent
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Joined: 17 Mar 2010
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Location: San Rafael, CA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's so fast and the long range edge is not that significant given the stealth bonus. It seems I would be cornered before much was done.
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Savedfromwhat
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is very fast but you should be able to keep him at 5+ range for two turns. Your long range is better than his so you should have enough to overcome his stealth.
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Nerroth
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, no takers on the OGD, then...


Have you considered trying the Middle Years equivalents of each of these ships?


The Middle Years LR would have shorter plasma arcs and wouldn't be able to carronade - though it's worth noting that non-Tholian opponents of the era would have their own quirks to watch out for, too.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that you have better long range than someone else doesn't mean you will overcome them. His long range is aneamic, saying you have better long range than him is not really saying much. Stealth hurts long range a lot.

I don't really see how you can 'sabre dance' him either. The tholian DD needs 8 power to fire disrupters (non ol) and ph1s, that leaves a max speed of 22 without the 2 batteries. The Orion can fire his ph1s and do speed 32 and have a spare power left. He can turn faster/have the move intiative/move faster - how do you sabre dance against that? You'll get in 1 attack run, but after turning away will never be able to turn your foward weapons at him again without finding yourself at his preferred range.

Certainly if you can maintain range then you will eventually overcome the Orion, but at range 9+ it could take over 20 odd turns to drop a shield on the orion (he can rotate more away than you inflict in a turn on average). Given the above speed and manouver discrepancy that is just not going to happen except against a really novice player.

The best range for these ships is 6-8, outside carronade but before the range 9 drop off. At that range you taking down the orion somewhat faster, but again will almost certainly not be able to keep that range, and it doesn't deliver enough oomph in 1 or 2 volleys to make up for then being caught at range 5 or less.

Now if you can get the orion to double engines things change, but the setup he has doesn't really require it until after he has fired the carronades. By then you are likely in no real position to take advantage of that though.

The big problem is that the long range ships like the tholian DD can't really kill him via range and don't out crunch the LR at close range either. Sure at close range your ph1s and disrupters 'overcome' stealth, but you are getting clobbered as much or more by the LR. The Tholian goes from about 38 to 14 damage as he goes from range 0 to 5 (non overload), whereas the LR goes from 42 to 33. Small ships are not good at overloads either - the Tholian DD has to drop to base speed 8 to fire 2 O/L disrupters and 4 ph1s, or base speed 16 by using up his limited battery. So whilst you could plan to overload for a bit more, you will probably slow down so much that the Orion will run circles around you.

I actually don't think going evasive will help that much - it costs another 3 power for the tholian (equivalent to 6 movement), and you are already short on power. When you do drop EM, and assuming you get the timing right, you can't really deliver a game winning shot, and may actually come of worse your self. EM might be useful for a ship that can get in close and deliver a killer blow, but you are looking at LDR cheetah/hydran buffalo/Lyran mil police for that sort of ship. They look better, but will still need to work hard to win.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't go at the Orion Head on to start, get him chasing you. You have superior weapon arcs as far as a running ship goes. As a Tholian DD you have access to a Disruptor that fires down the rear Right Oblique and Rear left Oblique along with all 4 phaser ones. You will be shooting at your opponents number one shield the whole time while they are firing at your numbers 3, 4 and 5. The Tholian DD has far superior shields to the LR and frankly can pack almost as large of a punch at close range as an LR equipped with three plasma F's.

Storyelf, I don't know where you got your numbers as far as damage goes but the Tholian will still be a threat even after a range 5 alpha strike from the LR, how the LR will fair I don't know (Probably not so good). If he fires his Plasma as torpedoes web Snare them, and if he decides to trade alpha strikes don't forget he can only get 2 plasma carronades on you unless you let him centerline you (something which is easily avoided out to range two).
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savedfromwhat wrote:
Don't go at the Orion Head on to start, get him chasing you. You have superior weapon arcs as far as a running ship goes. As a Tholian DD you have access to a Disruptor that fires down the rear Right Oblique and Rear left Oblique along with all 4 phaser ones. You will be shooting at your opponents number one shield the whole time while they are firing at your numbers 3, 4 and 5.



I presume by superior arcs for a running ship you mean compared to the other ships you coud have taken like the cheetah or buffalo?

For the kind of running fight you seem to be thinking about we are in for a long fight, once the 2 battery are used up, the DD is going to be spending the game feeling quite power starved. If it wants to fire both disrupters by waggling the back end, as well as ph1s it's down to having enough power for base speed 16 and accels to go 22 total, leaving no shield reinforcement. The LR can fire its long range weapons and go speed 32 (if it wants) with 1 power to spare. How are you expecting to run from someone who can easily outrun you, and will have move initiative?

What range are you hoping to keep, not that it matters much - the LR will largely determine the range given he can go faster. If the DD runs at max speed whilst shooting, then the LR can run at speed 24 (either 24 or 16+) fire all his ph1s and have 3 power spare for reinforcement. So it goes faster than the DD, has initiative, battery away most of the DD damage and can maintain range 9+ so long as the DD tries to keep running. The tholian takes 50% more damage on average than the LR, (and that's assuming the DD waggles each turn to get both Disrupters in arc) in the long run that leads to a tholian defeat. In order to equalise the damage (which favors the DD in the long run) the DD needs to keep power for his batteries, but then he goes even slower. Another effective LR tactic in that scenario is to declare EM on impulse 1, fire and then leave EM until end of turn letting it lapse ready for the same next turn. That leaves 1 power for battery and 0.5 power spare. Unless the DD is lined to fire on imp 1 before EM takes effect then the LR will on 'average' take no damage in a range 9+ duel, in practise he will take 2 every few turns from a disrupter hit, he will however be noticeably out damaging the DD in the long run.

The DD can possibly waggle and show shields 3, 4, 5 - but why would the LR spread his fire across them? He can wait till he gets just the one he wants to shoot each turn if he wants, which with his superior speed and move initiative shouldn't be to hard. If the DD isn't presenting those shields each turn then it is not waggling each turn, which diminishes firepower and again results in a defeat for the tholian. Equally the LR does not have to show shield 1 all the time, he can slip and turn just like the DD to present 6,1, and 2, his speed/manouver advantage allows him much more freedom in choosing shields to show or shoot whilst still keeping the range he wants, and his 360 ph1s means he doesn't worry about his facing. IMO the LR is the ship who has the advantage in what shields get hit on both ships. That said, for a range 9+ duel it is largely meaningless which shield is hit for a very long time, as the damage done is not large enough to beat how much can be rotated away each turn, even if the DD hits shield 1 every turn the LR will just rotate it away (and vice versa).

The critical problem is actually getting the weapons into arc whilst running. Against a same speed ship with the initiative (and doubly so if faster) it is very quickly impossible to waggle left and right to bring both sides into arc during a turn without turning towards the enemy on a forward oblique. In fact given competent play the LR can guarantee that a turn or 2 after the DD starts the 'run away and waggle' tactic it will never get into arc with either volley without turning twice to approach on a forward oblique or paying for a decel, and even the decel can't guarantee that it gets FX into arc. In practical terms it is in fact impossible to do what you appear to be suggesting, unless playing against a novice. At some point the DD must turn towards/perpendicular (i.e. 120 degree tturn) to the LR, to shoot him. The best the DD can do is keep open the range for the first couple of turns, after that (unless the LR wants to fight that style) any attempt to present the rear whilst shooting in fact becomes a circle or figure of 8 pattern as the DD tries to keep the faster more manouverable LR to one side or the other, whilst keeping enough power for shooting and batteries.


Quote:
The Tholian DD has far superior shields to the LR and frankly can pack almost as large of a punch at close range as an LR equipped with three plasma F's.


Yes the Tholian DD can pack almost a good as punch at very close range as the LR (which is what I was saying last post), but if the DD is running it is not choosing to be at that range, the LR chooses the range.


There is no way the Tholian DD is sabre dancing, nor is it fighting a running engagement with the LR behind it, unless the LR chooses to let that be the case, in which case the LR chooses the range bracket.


Quote:

Storyelf, I don't know where you got your numbers as far as damage goes but the Tholian will still be a threat even after a range 5 alpha strike from the LR, how the LR will fair I don't know (Probably not so good). If he fires his Plasma as torpedoes web Snare them, and if he decides to trade alpha strikes don't forget he can only get 2 plasma carronades on you unless you let him centerline you (something which is easily avoided out to range two).


The numbers are easily worked out (NB I was assuming carronades as that was what it appears the LR player was doing). If we assume that both ships have kept back battery power, then on average at range 5 the LR takes about 11 shield and a burnthrough (which DC of 4 promptly repairs), the LR shooting (even with 1 carronade out of arc) leaves the DD with 24 shield damage and a burnthrough, the DD only has 2 DC so half of all burnthrough (warp or phaser) can't immediately be repaired. After shield rotation the LR has enough shield left to absorb that again, whilst the DD will be looking at significant internals after another such exchange. I'd say that is probably a better exchange for the LR, who also still has a plasma left.

You are right in that the DD is still a threat after that exchange, but it appears to be more of a gambit, as it does usually come off worse at the point of exchange. Getting the LR to empty plasmas would seem to be the obvious reason to do that. Though even that is somewhat dodgy, the LR could just carronade again the following turn with just a point of power in each tube and still out damage the DD at range 5.

The DD will do a bit better if he can overload the Disrupters, but that requires 4 more power, or 8 less speed. The DD will really be struggling to get where it wants at that speed.

In general I can't see why the LR would launch the plasma against a ship that can just ignore them so readily, although if no power is left after that range 5 exchange then a plasma launch may be appropriate.

At the start of the game I can't see any tactic for the DD that gives it a clear edge. The couple of ranges it can come off slightly better in a shooting match are mitigated by its inability to get to or keep those ranges whilst shooting. It does have an edge if the LR starts doubling, at that point the LR loses the +1 stealth and the DD can make its weapons count, however, even that is tempered by the fact that after doubling the LR can readily afford to go EM for a +2, which may be enough to do what the LR wants for the turn it doubles.

As noted originally the stealth hurts, and it affects long range ships far more than short range ships. Long range fire can see a 30-50% reduction in damage, which is then negated even further by just a couple of points of battery. Close range fire sees a much smaller percentage reduction, and can still overwhelm batteries. e.g. Range 9-15 ph1s see a 50% drop in damage. A range 1 ph3 sees ~14% reduction in damage. Close range ships still have the usual problem - getting close, but at least they have a clear point to aim for that the LR will fear happening, whereas the long range ships seem to be floundering hoping the LR makes a mistake.
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Savedfromwhat
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be happy to play the game storyelf. You might be suprised at what a little tiny Tholian Destroyer can do to an LR. It's all going to be a game of manuever and frankly I think you will never find the perfect shot as the LR, doesn't matter how fast you go. Once the LR has fired its Carronades it will be forced to make serious decisions about Doubling his power and don't think for a second he is going to get a second range 5 shot on the same shield. Once the range gap closes he will lose any advantage he had. Superior Shields, Superior Hull. The Orion does not have the Staying power and I believe that if both ships are played well the Tholian can come out on top.

Never once did I say it was going to be a blowout on either side. I also thoink the LDR Cheetah Frigate has a great chance against the LR, but we are talking about the Tholian still. If you ever make it to Phoenix I would love to give it a runthrough with you. If I make it to the Game store on Saturday I will be sure to give this a go and write up a battle report.
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ryanakent
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my limited experience, the LR just got right on my i eat my boogers and there was nothing i could do to shake him off other than HET and he was often right on my i eat my boogers so I couldn't even HET without him moving right to my rear again.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryanakent wrote:
From my limited experience, the LR just got right on my i eat my boogers and there was nothing i could do to shake him off other than HET and he was often right on my i eat my boogers so I couldn't even HET without him moving right to my rear again.


If you want to put in what the system thinks of as 'rude' words, you need to use replacement characters.

In context, I believe the word you were looking for is 'a$$' Smile
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ryanakent
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoops Wink
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Wolverin61
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
In context, I believe the word you were looking for is 'a$$' Smile

Hmm, I thought it was 'six' Wink
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