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terryoc
Captain
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1386
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 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | My concern is that there should be no "special tournament rules". If Sabot is needed for tournament, then it is needed in the normal game. I really, really do not want to see FC turn into SFB in the sense that tournament SFB and "real" SFB are different animals, often to the exclusion of the other. I do not want to see that for FC.
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I agree, FC should be FC no matter if you are playing it at home, on FCOL, or in the tournament. This was not a tournament rule change proposal. I don't think this is just a tournament issue. I think this is needed in the normal game. Consider: the tournament map is fixed, which really should be favouring launched plasma, which it doesn't. Standard rules say plasma must be on a location map, which is much larger. If launched plasma doesn't work in the tournament, then the problem exists in regular FC too.
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rulesjd
Lieutenant JG
Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 48
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| terryoc wrote: | | Quote: | My concern is that there should be no "special tournament rules". If Sabot is needed for tournament, then it is needed in the normal game. I really, really do not want to see FC turn into SFB in the sense that tournament SFB and "real" SFB are different animals, often to the exclusion of the other. I do not want to see that for FC.
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I agree, FC should be FC no matter if you are playing it at home, on FCOL, or in the tournament. This was not a tournament rule change proposal. I don't think this is just a tournament issue. I think this is needed in the normal game. Consider: the tournament map is fixed, which really should be favouring launched plasma, which it doesn't. Standard rules say plasma must be on a location map, which is much larger. If launched plasma doesn't work in the tournament, then the problem exists in regular FC too. |
Terry. Are we getting routine tournament feedback that shows Gorns and Roms "can't" win with meaningful sample sizes? There isn't much in the way of FC tournaments in Seattle.
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1897
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| terryoc wrote: | | Consider: the tournament map is fixed, which really should be favouring launched plasma |
Consider also that a hard 'real time' limit is a penalty to multi turn armers, being a bigger penalty the more turns something takes to arm, and being a bigger penalty for seekers that take time to travel and hit. 1 turn weapns can be sure they have the ability to fire an average of 1/turn, plasma might only get 1 launch over 5 turns unless they fire early (even though they may not really be in a good position for it), and even after doing that they can't be absolutely sure that they'll get a turn 5 for a second launch, or that they will have the time to set up a useful second launch.
I don't know how many turns got played on average in the last tourney, but in the tourney style games we've played it is rare to get a meaningful second plasma launch simply due to time limit.
In a normal game the plasma player can be more patient, for example launch one might force the HET, and a second launch will not have to contend with that. You can't rely on getting that second launch with a real time limit.
Changing to a turn limit rather than time limit might help, at least then it could be set to ensure every one will know how many shots they have the potential for, and exactly how many turns they have to plan for. 6/7 turns would allow 2 turners to reasonably get 3 volleys and plasma 2 volleys. |
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pinecone
Fleet Captain
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1862
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Uh, guys?
If you say the Plasma users get a 40-speed plasma, then you have to give those facing it wild weasels. Otherwise it's just not fair.
I'm in the middle of playing the scenario Refiner's Fire right now, and if there had been 40 speed plasmas I would have already lost, despite a lot of bad moves my opponent had made. But I have actually succeded in evening the odds of the battle.
And on that note, one of the bad moves my opponent made was not bolting his plasma. Again, if he had done that I would have been in serious trouble. But he didn't, and that's the main reason why I'm almost ahead. Plasma Bolts (especially carronades) are worth using for sure.
Plasma might not hit that often, but the threat of it keeps the enemy running. That alone makes plasma worth it.
Note this is (almost) the exact same post as I put on the Thread "Faster Plasma," but I felt it was important to put here too. |
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| pinecone wrote: | | And on that note, one of the bad moves my opponent made was not bolting his plasma. Again, if he had done that I would have been in serious trouble. But he didn't, and that's the main reason why I'm almost ahead. Plasma Bolts (especially carronades) are worth using for sure. |
You MIGHT have been in trouble. Bolts are terribly inaccurate for a massively expensive 3 turn arming weapon. Chances are very good a lot of bolts would have missed.
And that there is part of the problem. If you spend an arm, two legs and 3 years arming a weapon you should have a decent chance of it hitting. |
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pinecone
Fleet Captain
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1862
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Pl-S bolts a range 1? No, at least one would hit.
I do understand the point though. Check out a similar question I put in another thread, I'll got get the link... |
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Savedfromwhat
Commander
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 657
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Bolts only hit on a 1-4 so for my 8 point weapon over 3 turns I have a 66% vhance to get 16 damage... Plasma bolts are very situational pinecone the versatility of the weapon doesn't automatically make it good. |
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pinecone
Fleet Captain
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1862
Location: Earth
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Given this post and the other on plasma are very similar topics with many of the same points brought up perhaps we should consolidate to the other post. That one is a bit longer and has SVC and MJW active. We can always link or quote anything relevant from this one over there. |
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pinecone
Fleet Captain
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1862
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| I'd be careful about that... You don't want someone thinking that you're reviving dead posts. but in this case I think it would be appropriate, just not sure. |
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DaveP.
Lieutenant JG
Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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My idea was to give 'sabot' plas torps an extra hex of movement in Sub-Pulse 1 of each impulse in flight; that way they would get that speed advantage over 'speed-32' ships and also mean that they stood a better chance of hitting a fleeing ship.
I was also thinking they should be limited to Romulans, as Gorns and Feds get the carronade already and the ISC has access to PPD-armed ships.
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