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Federation Commander
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 4091
Location: Dallas, Texas
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 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Savedfromwhat wrote: | | Mjwest isn't saying there is anything wrong with plasma, just that if it takes 10+ turns to be viable there is something wrong with it. Many scenarios have a 10 turn time limit and the tournament has a soft limit of 5 turns so I would like to find another option. |
This is correct. I am not saying that there is a problem. I don't know. I am saying that requiring 10+ turn plasma ballets that require the opponent to make a mistake is not a valid solution. Plasma ballet can be a valid tactic. It cannot be the only valid tactic.
And no, the disruptor sabre dance is not a valid comparison for two important reasons:
1) The sabre dance is not the only valid tactic. Disruptors can get in and mash it up. There are multiple ways to use the disruptor and win.
2) Even in the sabre dance, the disruptor is actually doing damage. In the plasma ballet, on the other hand, plasma does zero damage.
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | | mmm, I can see where you are coming from, the hard time limit is what I've also noted as being IMO the main problem in tourneys with plasma. However, I take issue with outright illegal issue, how is it illegal to play according to the rules of the game in a way that best maximises your chances of winning? A tourney is by definition a competetive setup, you shouldn't be telling players it is illegal to play in a way that bests suits their choice of ships when the alternative is to lose. |
Tourney rules require both sides to remain aggressive. Being passive or evasive for too long gets you disqualified as you are just "running out the clock".
It has to be this way because anyone can come up with a valid reason that they shouldn't be closing right now when the real reason is that they are slightly ahead in points and they plan to just fly in circles for the next 2 hours of real time. |
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 4091
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | | Running around waiting for the other guy to make a mistake is a perfectly valid tactic. FedCom may not be SFB, but its hardly a Beer and pretzels game either. |
I will skip the rest because I will just be repeating myself. However, it is worth repeating myself for this very important point: I have no problem with running around waiting for the other guy to make a mistake being a valid tactic. I have a huge problem with that being the only valid tactic.
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Nerroth
Fleet Captain
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1722
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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One other question; why are plasma ships assumed to always wait for the third turn?
If you are flying, say, a War Eagle, it's understandable; but then, that's part of the point with that ship (and its cloaking device!).
However, if you have a ship with multiple launchers and a half-decent phaser suite, one could stagger one's launches and maintain a more constant pressure each turn.
(Say, for example, you have a Squadron Scale Gorn CM; you could try to launch one S on one turn, another S the next, and the two Fs on the third.)
Plus, you can two-turn Fs from larger launchers if you wanted to keep things busy...
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| DirkSJ wrote: | | storeylf wrote: | | mmm, I can see where you are coming from, the hard time limit is what I've also noted as being IMO the main problem in tourneys with plasma. However, I take issue with outright illegal issue, how is it illegal to play according to the rules of the game in a way that best maximises your chances of winning? A tourney is by definition a competetive setup, you shouldn't be telling players it is illegal to play in a way that bests suits their choice of ships when the alternative is to lose. |
Tourney rules require both sides to remain aggressive. Being passive or evasive for too long gets you disqualified as you are just "running out the clock".
It has to be this way because anyone can come up with a valid reason that they shouldn't be closing right now when the real reason is that they are slightly ahead in points and they plan to just fly in circles for the next 2 hours of real time. |
Running out the clock would be where I spend minutes every impulse 'deciding' whether to accelerate.
As long as I'm playing at an acceptable pace then how is maintaining a winning position on a fixed map 'running out the clock'. Why should I have to close if I can win by maintaining range 15?, its for the other guy to demonstrate that he has the tactical ability to win the game. It shouldn't be my responsibility to close and give him exchanges I know I can't win. If I have a 3 turn arming weapon and have just put myself in a winning position by firing it then why should it be illegal to spend the next 2 turns running fast and evasive, even if that will cover all the remaining time? |
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | Running out the clock would be where I spend minutes every impulse 'deciding' whether to accelerate.
As long as I'm playing at an acceptable pace then how is maintaining a winning position on a fixed map 'running out the clock'. Why should I have to close if I can win by maintaining range 15?, its for the other guy to demonstrate that he has the tactical ability to win the game. It shouldn't be my responsibility to close and give him exchanges I know I can't win. If I have a 3 turn arming weapon and have just put myself in a winning position by firing it then why should it be illegal to spend the next 2 turns running fast and evasive, even if that will cover all the remaining time? |
I don't have the engagement rules for tourney play in front of me but I believe the answer to your question is a combination of:
a) that isn't fun to play or watch
b) because the rules say so |
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| DirkSJ wrote: | | mjwest wrote: | One comment I can't let pass: Federation Commander is supposed to be fun and exciting. Plasma ballet is as boring as watching paint dry. The whole point is to be able to have a full battle in an hour or so. Running around waiting for your opponent to get bored and do something stupid is not a real tactic. It is also outright illegal in tournament where you basically have a hard time limit.
So, if the only way to make plasma work is to run around for 10+ turns waiting for your opponent to get bored and make a mistake, then that would qualify as broken in my book.
Note that this is not me taking a side. Just sayin' ... |
Two folks from the "plasma is fine" side have made this their argument: Plasma is fine when you ballet and take 10+ turns. Will either of you or anyone else take the stance that plasma is fine in a 1 hour 3-5 turn game?
If not then, as I read MJW's post, plasma is not fine. If we aren't closing, maneuvering for best shot and blowing things up then we aren't playing FC. Flying around in circles for hours waiting for the perfect shot isn't FC.
There's a rule in AVT that says "rule disputes should be settled in favor of ships blowing up because this is a game about ships blowing up." I feel the same about FC. |
The issue here is migrating to what people see FC as being about. I consider it to be pretty much everything I wanted from SFB.
FC does meet MWests criteria - you can have a decisive fight in an hour or so. That doesn't mean every game or matchup has to go that way. If you want a fast game play a 1 vs 1 duel, or 2 crunch races against each other. But bear in mind even a classic klingon vs Fed duel can go on for way longer than an hour or so between good players playing seriously, does that mean there is something wrong with photons or disrupters? You can have a squadron level fight with 2 players in an evening, way faster than SFB.
So plasma are 'broken' because it takes time and patience and that is the 'only' tactic. Actually there are tactics like close and tractor. Of course that probably fails against a decent opponent.
You see a lot of people post that the way to win with Fed is to close and hose. There are other tactics, but they probably fail against decent opponents. Horror of horror! photons are broke, they only have 1 reliable general tactic.
In any given matchup each side likely has 1 clear overall stategy/tactic, there are other strategy/tactics available, but they are often risky and hence avoided by good players unless desperation calls. Plasma is no different to photons or disrupters in that regard. How far do you take the 'only' viable tactic defintion of broke? what constitutes viable - viable against all possible matchups, viable against only top class players, or more 'average' ones?
what classes as a tactic - what variation pushes a tactic to be different to another variation. take a rough guide to the 3 plasma games I played:
Rom vs hydran(w 18 stingers) - stay cloaked, bide time for the perfect time to uncloak with a given ship and fire 3 plasma at 3 stingers to guarantee 3 kills, I lost a snipe but killed enough stingers to win. tense game of patience and cat and mouse waiting for those moments whilst being whittled away under cloak by gatlings and fusions.
Gorn vs rom - expended all Plasma S to force the Rom CC to keep running wide and facing away, whilst phasers and plasma Fs achieved local fire power supremacy against 2 smaller Roms. Hardly a high scoring game, only 3 ships being 'damaged' at the end - but I won, even lanuched 3 plasma S at range 20-22 at one point just to bias a turning decision the Rom CC was about to make.
Rom vs Klingon - First half of the game ripple fired all plasma against 2 ships forcing them to run, and the third ran to avoid seperating. I Sscore damage as they run using phasers etc, then second half of game run, evade, cloak like a chicken, won as the klingon couldn't make up the points I scored in the first half in the remaining time.
Non of them were exactly fast and 'aggressive', all were low scoring. 1 involved me using the cloak limit to the hilt, the other running like hell for a couple of turns (after the other guy had run like hell for 2 turns it might be added - another point to consider when talking about legality, why woud it be legal to run that long just cos you have plasma chasing you, yet it be illegal when you have nothing useful to fight with until rearmed).
I maintain that there is no issue with plasma generally, the issue appears to be down either:
A) to the tourney setup itself favoring certain races (or indeed, maybe as much to do with peoples assumption as to how the other guy has to play a certain style even if it doesn't suit his race/weapon).
B) a desired style of play coloring opinions of how the game should play, and very subjective definitions of 'exciting'.
Last edited by storeylf on Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:45 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| DirkSJ wrote: | | storeylf wrote: | Running out the clock would be where I spend minutes every impulse 'deciding' whether to accelerate.
As long as I'm playing at an acceptable pace then how is maintaining a winning position on a fixed map 'running out the clock'. Why should I have to close if I can win by maintaining range 15?, its for the other guy to demonstrate that he has the tactical ability to win the game. It shouldn't be my responsibility to close and give him exchanges I know I can't win. If I have a 3 turn arming weapon and have just put myself in a winning position by firing it then why should it be illegal to spend the next 2 turns running fast and evasive, even if that will cover all the remaining time? |
I don't have the engagement rules for tourney play in front of me but I believe the answer to your question is a combination of:
a) that isn't fun to play or watch
b) because the rules say so |
Fun for whom? Fun for me is where you have 2 players trying their best to win with the races they took. I would be serioulsy peed off if the other guy effectively threw the game away in order to avoid disqualification for 'running out the clock'. It my job to chase/beat him down, if I don't then I don't deserve the title 'champion' (assuming you win).
[edit]I re-read the only rules I'm aware of (the ones about 3 or 4 posts above this one at the moment) - I see nothing about this, or how it's illegal to use certain tactics because a few others might find them boring. Nothing required that some audience find it fun, nor that I quiz my opponent on his idea of fun. So I ask again, why it is illegal to play certain tactics if they are the tactics suited to a race. How is determing illegallity in the middle of the game done - who decides X can run for 2 turns from plasma, but Y can't run for 2 turns whilst he re-arms?
Last edited by storeylf on Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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gar1138
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Would adding some sort of acceleration limit (I think mentioned earlier) help the plasma users out slightly? Being able to go speed 8 one turn, then 24+1 on the next definitely makes it a little easier to evade plasma. Perhaps something like you can only plot the next base speed higher each turn. So if you were going base speed 8, the next turn you could only go base speed 16.
On the other hand, that is a hugely fundamental change that would affect more that just plasma users. However, since SFB uses acceleration limits, it might work out overall (after lots of play testing, of course).
Garrett |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Anecdotally, I've played 2 games with plasma vs an equal player using tournament rules over the last month. One was Gorn vs Kzinti and the other was Romulan vs Klingon. Both times, the Plasma race was decisively beaten.
In the 1st matchup, the drones were decisive. 12-14 drones are extremely hard to deal with given the limited phaser capacity of the Gorn fleet (BCH, BC, and BDD).
In the 2nd matchup, it was the tournament Eagle squadron vs the tournament D5WL squadron, and the Eagles were crushed. The Klingons swooped within 8 hexes and smashed the BH and Snipe and then ran away from plasma.
IMO, plasma needs some help. Perhaps you can allow 2 turn arming of 1 torpedo size smaller than the launcher size? So a G tube can launch a 2 turn F at a cost of 4 energy as normal, an S tube can launch a 2 turn G at a cost of 6 energy and an R tube can launch a 2 turn S at a cost of 7 energy? |
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Kang
Fleet Captain
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1976
Location: Devon, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| mojo jojo wrote: | | smashed the ... Snipe |
So what's new? 
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rulesjd
Lieutenant JG
Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 48
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve Cole wrote: | | While I am a long way from convinced that plasma is a problem, or has a problem, changing BPVs is very hard the way FC is printed, and would not be the way i'd fix it if it needs fixing at all. |
Hey Steve. Like you, I am not yet convinced. However, most of my tournament play has been SFB and I've mostly played FC scenarios. I think you should gather data on the tournament scene before doing anything.
Like I pointed out, rather than fudging the plasma movement or changing BPV's, it would simply be more practical to allow plasma races either to be fully loaded or at least be in rolling delay at the start. This means a 1st and 4th turn launch capability for them in tournaments with similar power curve limits as Fed's.
Is there anyone gathering stats on plasma races and tournmanet participation/performance?
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 4091
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| rulesjd wrote: | | Like I pointed out, rather than fudging the plasma movement or changing BPV's, it would simply be more practical to allow plasma races either to be fully loaded or at least be in rolling delay at the start. This means a 1st and 4th turn launch capability for them in tournaments with similar power curve limits as Fed's. |
That really won't do anything. The issue is that plasma can't hit, not that it isn't ready. So, whether you launch those two Pl-S torpedoes on turn one, or turn two, they still aren't going to hit a target moving 24+1.
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1862
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| mjwest wrote: | | pinecone wrote: | | The K7R is based on the D7, and equal match for the CA. The KR, based on the D6, is not. |
You appear to be missing the point the other poster is making. Equating the K7R with the D7 doesn't work because they have very different point values. The K7R is 166 points. The D7 is only 138. That is an important difference.
Actually, comparing the D7 and KR is a very far comparison. The D7 is 138 and the KR is 132, a much more manageable difference. They should be a fairly even match, and should be able to fight anything the other can fight.
So, the fact that the KR is based on the D6 doesn't really matter. What matters is that the KR and D7 are rated as the equivalent ships (based on point value), and they are the ones that should be compared.
A fairer fight for the K7R is the D5WL (an exact match at 166 points). |
The only reason for those points is the Cloak, which is never used anyway. |
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Kang
Fleet Captain
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1976
Location: Devon, UK
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:11 am Post subject: |
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As always with anything like this, if your tactics are not working, you need to develop new ones. Ore even recycle old ones.
That's what you'd have to do 'in real life'! 
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