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terryoc
Captain
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1384
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 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, if your panels are full/deactivated, you're vulnerable to internal damage.
Evasive Maneuvers and range can help mitigate this.
Watch out for Hellbores though. Nassty helboreses, we hates them, yes we does 
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| terryoc wrote: | Yep, if your panels are full/deactivated, you're vulnerable to internal damage.
Evasive Maneuvers and range can help mitigate this.
Watch out for Hellbores though. Nassty helboreses, we hates them, yes we does |
And lovely, lovely PPDs. |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| terryoc wrote: | In the case of the Intruder vs ISC DN, I'd like to make some additional points:
1. The Intruder's turn mode is C, the DN's is E. The Intruder's heavy weapons have a FH arc and the DN's is FA. If the Intruder is patient, it should outmaneuver the DN and be able to hit a rear shield. Yes, the DN can HET safely once, but more than that and it's a big risk.
2. The DNP is arguably UNDER-pointed. (As is the CS for that matter.) I don't think a ship with four PPDs is really worth the same as a ship with two, or one with four plasma-S and no PPDs. The PPD in FC is better than in SFB. Other Galactic DNs would have to be lucky to fill the panels with their heavy weapons at range 5. Fed for example: with six photons, at range 5 half will hit, or 48 points with average rolls for full overloads.
So I think the Intruder has an uphill fight here. Not impossible, just that it is fighting against an opponent which is better than its point value suggests. The Intruder will have to use all of its advantages to win. |
I definitely agree that the DNP and CS are underpointed.  However, other DNH's can fill the panels at least, even if they don't do many internals to the Intruder. The Fed for example as you pointed out would do 48 damage from overloaded photons on average, but they also have 9-12 PH1 that can be shooting as well depending on whether it's a centerline shot. Each PH1 does 3.5 damage on average at range 5. If 4 photons hit or if phasers do a little more than average damage, the Int will be hurting.
A disrupter DNH usually has 6 disrupters and 10-14 ph1 that can fire forward. You can easily do 60-70 damage with overloads at range 5 which means 6-7 burnthrough, and your weapons cycle quickly which means it's not that easy to do the panel dump.
Meanwhile, the Andro probably has just 2 TRH and 4 PH-2 unless they centerline which isn't that easy to arrange. That probably won't do more than knock down a shield at range 5. If they hold out to range 3, they can do some internals, but then the photon/disrupter/ph1 will start doing a lot more damage in return as well and will overwhelm 80 panel boxes.
I just think a DNH would be too powerful for an intruder. I might be influenced by a recent game of Another Man's Treasure. We both thought the ISC was too powerful, so we removed a CL and FF from their fleet. The matchup was DNP, CA, DD, and FF vs Int, Mam, 3 Cob. In that game, the DN and CA blew up the Intruder at 5-6 hexes range plus a Cob was heavily damaged. In return, the CA was crippled and a DD was almost killed.
5 PPDs, 2 bolted PL-S, and 18 PH1 was too much for even an intruder to handle.  |
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terryoc
Captain
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1384
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | However, other DNH's can fill the panels at least, even if they don't do many internals to the Intruder. |
True, the DNH can fill the panels. The panels can regenerate a heck of a lot faster than the DNH's shield will.
Someone's mentioned that the lack of EW in FC hurts the Andromedans, which may be true. It's certainly true that Andros cannot fly in and swap punches in the face the way that Galactic ships can. That's not how they are intended to work. (BTW I don't think ANY 265-point ship could stand up to 5 PPDs, 2 S-bolts, and 18 ph-1 at Range 5). As long as the Andromedan's power absorber panels are shedding damage faster than the Galactic shields are, the Andromedan is winning. Andros are the ultimate sabre dancers.
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Arguing who will win because of what a ship can do at range 5 is bizarre. I could equally argue that 3 buffalo hunters (no stingers) can kill an ISC DN at range 1 without even overloading the fusions, they cost 25 pts less. In return the DN can only just kill 1 of those destroyers, ergo the ISC DN must be underpowered.
Of course the Hydrans are not going to reach range 1 intact cos the DN doesn't want them to. Equally why would the Intruder want to be getting hit by PPD/Ph1s at range 5? The intruder is more manouverable and has displacement devices, there is no reason for him to be at a range that doesn't suit him. If the intruder is in a bad exchange it is because he goofed up.
The more I look at that matchup the more I think it is the ISC DN who is in serious trouble, the DN is just prey being toyed with, swinging away at the Intruder hoping for a lucky strike. |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:03 am Post subject: |
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Of course the Int needs to reach exactly range 3 centerlined to have a favorable exchange. Range 4-5 allows for PPDs to fire for full effectiveness. Range 2 or closer would result in 8 PH3 added to the picture plus more damage from PH1. And since the Andro doesn't actually want to stay at that range, that should leave plenty of opportunity for PPD goodness during the run away stage of the fight.
It would take some seriously good maneuvering and/or a serious goofup by the ISC to get an exact range 3 centerlined alpha strike and avoid PPD damage while running away. |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| terryoc wrote: | | As long as the Andromedan's power absorber panels are shedding damage faster than the Galactic shields are, the Andromedan is winning. Andros are the ultimate sabre dancers. |
I admit it's all hypothetical right now for me until I play a Int vs DNH matchup. Still, something like a Disrupter DNH would make it hard to shed damage faster than it absorbs. Fast cycling weapons make it very hard to do the panel dump as long as the DNH player keeps some disrupters unfired during the turn. |
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| mojo jojo wrote: | Of course the Int needs to reach exactly range 3 centerlined to have a favorable exchange. Range 4-5 allows for PPDs to fire for full effectiveness. Range 2 or closer would result in 8 PH3 added to the picture plus more damage from PH1. And since the Andro doesn't actually want to stay at that range, that should leave plenty of opportunity for PPD goodness during the run away stage of the fight.
It would take some seriously good maneuvering and/or a serious goofup by the ISC to get an exact range 3 centerlined alpha strike and avoid PPD damage while running away. |
If the andro declares a displacement then he can get to range 3 before the PPDs fire if he is anything from range 16-19 (depending on the exact situation). If the PPDs do not fire then the Intruder has an excellent chance of a favourable exchange at any range 0-3. He won't get the best centerline shot neccesarily, but a rinse and repeat will wear down the ISC eventually.
Unless the ISC can centerline (and he really shoudn't be able to) he has 10Ph1 and 4Ph3. Average range 0 damage = 81, average range 3 damage = 46.
The Andro (who with a better turn mode at least, and possibly being faster) will be more lilely to centerline, 3 TR beams and 8 Ph2. Average range 0 damage = 101, range 3 damage = 82.
If he doesn't centerline
Average range 0 damage = 60, range 3 damage = 52.
The ISC is looking at filling the front panel and maybe scoring a few internals at range 0. Even if the Intruder has a non centerline pass on a side shield the ISC is looking at noticeble internals, all directed. A range 1 pass is extremely bad for the ISC, his damage drops by quite a chunk, and will probably not go through the Panels, but he still loses a shield and takes anything from 11 - 61 internals (depending on intruder centerlined and which shield got hit). That amount of directed damage could well strip the ISC of PPDs anyway. He can also H&R any surving PPDs.
Firing the PPDs at a running Intruder is not so easy either. He will likely be running somewhere out your rear half, where the PPDs can't bear, and the ISC has a crap turn mode. The likely scenario is that as the intruder fired he also declared EM. If the ISC pulls a HET he brings the PPDs round to fire on an EM intruder, if he doesn't HET he doesn't fire at a decent range, either way he is firing at the still clear back panels, and a bit of splash to the front which may also still be able to absorb that.
The best counter to the PPDs being held though is to time the attack run on impulse 8. Displace in on impulse 8, any long range phaser fire will be simply dissipated or go to batteries over the turn break, that allows you to then use the second displacement device on the impulse the intruder fires (as you declare EM), so the ISC gets smacked and the Intruder displaces away (now under EM) and moves another 4 before the ISC gets any chance to fire a PPD, which will certainly be at range 11+ and probably 16+. If the displace away does fail, then you are still in the normal situation of being EM as you run out the rear arc.
The Intruder then holds EM at long range whilst waiting for power to dissipate, which it does pretty quickly, he can remove 48 from the front bank by the time he as re-armed the TRs/DisDevs even without a power dump. EM at range 16 is totally safe from phasers, so only PPDs are an issue at that range.
The ISC can fill those PA under the right circumstances, but against a decent Intuder player it doesn't look like he will be quite able to push it that extra bit and actually seriously harm the intruder. The intruder can quite quickly recover from that once he is back at range under EM and rearming. The ISC however is taking much more irreperable damage on each pass, potentially a lot of damage. In the worst case sceanrio of the Intruder directing 90-100 damage at weapons, the ISC will likely lose 2 or 3 PPDs before they even got to fire, and be in a situation where he lacks the firepower to significantly threaten the next Intruder on the next attack run.
I think the idea of holding PPDs back at the point of initial displacement is asking for trouble.
The issue with firing the PPDs at long range is that they aren't doing so much damage, and if they do happen to hurt the andro then he can abort the attack run, and leave the PH1s etc being fired at range 5+ into the rear panels, then power dump now that PPDs aren't a threat, disspiate over the turn break. Then come back in the following turn when PPDs are not even an issue.
The ISC is between the devil and the deep blue sea, If he fires PPDs the andro swerves off and comes back next turn, if he holds then he risks taking a hammering and losing them before they fire.
A mistake by the Intruder could be bad news, but I do think he has the edge between move initiative and disdevs and the fact that PAs are way better at clearing damage taken than shields are. It may take quite a few passes to wear the ISC down. The myopic zone on the PPD probably makes the DNP the easiest DN for an intruder to tackle, it is a weakness that he can readily exploit. Other DNs may not be so easy as they can hold off on the heavies and use them close up. |
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Dan Ibekwe
Commander
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 449
Location: Manchester UK
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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One difference between FC and SFB for the Andros is the dissappearance of Planel Degredation on FC.
This rule was added in Captain's Edition, where the Andromedans were extensively toned down in several respects - the satelite ships previously all had TRHs (there were no TRLs in Commanders' Edition).
Panel Degredation was precisely to stop the Andomedans closing, shooting and then running away to flush their panels over and over again without ever taking significant permanent damage.
While it did this, it required a huge overhead in bookkeeping that I'm not sorry to lose in FC.
A couple of coma notes. Given generally higher combat speeds in FC, I'd try to stay with the Andro as it runs. This implies the use of multiple, smaller galactic ships - I tried this with a Klingon C5 last night and was simply displaced away for my pains. Two War Cruisers would have been a better choice.
From an Andromedan perspective, stopping the enemy shooting at you while you're briefly 'naked' becomes key. Announcing EM and displacing the nearest enemy on Impulse 8 (to disrupt them of Impulse 1 of the next turn) helps - you have to think a few impulses ahead.
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We are Hydrans! NO ONE LIKES US! |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | If the andro declares a displacement then he can get to range 3 before the PPDs fire if he is anything from range 16-19 (depending on the exact situation). If the PPDs do not fire then the Intruder has an excellent chance of a favourable exchange at any range 0-3. He won't get the best centerline shot neccesarily, but a rinse and repeat will wear down the ISC eventually.
Unless the ISC can centerline (and he really shoudn't be able to) he has 10Ph1 and 4Ph3. Average range 0 damage = 81, average range 3 damage = 46.
The Andro (who with a better turn mode at least, and possibly being faster) will be more lilely to centerline, 3 TR beams and 8 Ph2. Average range 0 damage = 101, range 3 damage = 82.
If he doesn't centerline
Average range 0 damage = 60, range 3 damage = 52.
The ISC is looking at filling the front panel and maybe scoring a few internals at range 0. Even if the Intruder has a non centerline pass on a side shield the ISC is looking at noticeble internals, all directed. A range 1 pass is extremely bad for the ISC, his damage drops by quite a chunk, and will probably not go through the Panels, but he still loses a shield and takes anything from 11 - 61 internals (depending on intruder centerlined and which shield got hit). That amount of directed damage could well strip the ISC of PPDs anyway. He can also H&R any surving PPDs. |
You'd better not get to range 0 or 1. The ISC will tractor the Int and blow it up with superior phasers even without PPDs.
| storeylf wrote: |
Firing the PPDs at a running Intruder is not so easy either. He will likely be running somewhere out your rear half, where the PPDs can't bear, and the ISC has a crap turn mode. The likely scenario is that as the intruder fired he also declared EM. If the ISC pulls a HET he brings the PPDs round to fire on an EM intruder, if he doesn't HET he doesn't fire at a decent range, either way he is firing at the still clear back panels, and a bit of splash to the front which may also still be able to absorb that.
The best counter to the PPDs being held though is to time the attack run on impulse 8. Displace in on impulse 8, any long range phaser fire will be simply dissipated or go to batteries over the turn break, that allows you to then use the second displacement device on the impulse the intruder fires (as you declare EM), so the ISC gets smacked and the Intruder displaces away (now under EM) and moves another 4 before the ISC gets any chance to fire a PPD, which will certainly be at range 11+ and probably 16+. If the displace away does fail, then you are still in the normal situation of being EM as you run out the rear arc.
The Intruder then holds EM at long range whilst waiting for power to dissipate, which it does pretty quickly, he can remove 48 from the front bank by the time he as re-armed the TRs/DisDevs even without a power dump. EM at range 16 is totally safe from phasers, so only PPDs are an issue at that range. |
Your strategy seems to depend on 2 DisDev attempts succeeding. If not, the ISC HETs and blasts the intruder with not only PPDs, but a vastly superior phaser suite. I think it would take some incredible maneuvering from the Andro to go from Range 3 out the rear half of the ISC without being tractored. Most likely, the Andro is retreating where a single turn by the PPDs will bring them into arc.
| storeylf wrote: |
The ISC can fill those PA under the right circumstances, but against a decent Intuder player it doesn't look like he will be quite able to push it that extra bit and actually seriously harm the intruder. The intruder can quite quickly recover from that once he is back at range under EM and rearming. The ISC however is taking much more irreperable damage on each pass, potentially a lot of damage. In the worst case sceanrio of the Intruder directing 90-100 damage at weapons, the ISC will likely lose 2 or 3 PPDs before they even got to fire, and be in a situation where he lacks the firepower to significantly threaten the next Intruder on the next attack run. |
If the Intruder directs fire at range 0, it will definitely hurt the DN, but the DN fills the Intruder panels and causes some internals in return. Then it tractors the Intruder and what's left of 18 PH1/PH3 easily beats what's left of 8 PH2. You're just hastening the Intruder destruction.
| storeylf wrote: |
I think the idea of holding PPDs back at the point of initial displacement is asking for trouble.
The issue with firing the PPDs at long range is that they aren't doing so much damage, and if they do happen to hurt the andro then he can abort the attack run, and leave the PH1s etc being fired at range 5+ into the rear panels, then power dump now that PPDs aren't a threat, disspiate over the turn break. Then come back in the following turn when PPDs are not even an issue.
The ISC is between the devil and the deep blue sea, If he fires PPDs the andro swerves off and comes back next turn, if he holds then he risks taking a hammering and losing them before they fire. |
My strategy if you read a prior post was to fire 2 PPDs at long range and keep 2 in reserve. Even 2 PPDs will provide a serious hurting if a panel dump is attempted. There's no hurry to fire them since they're held cheaply and range does't affect their damage by that much.
| storeylf wrote: |
A mistake by the Intruder could be bad news, but I do think he has the edge between move initiative and disdevs and the fact that PAs are way better at clearing damage taken than shields are. It may take quite a few passes to wear the ISC down. The myopic zone on the PPD probably makes the DNP the easiest DN for an intruder to tackle, it is a weakness that he can readily exploit. Other DNs may not be so easy as they can hold off on the heavies and use them close up. |
Why don't you play it out and see? |
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| mojo jojo wrote: | | You'd better not get to range 0 or 1. The ISC will tractor the Int and blow it up with superior phasers even without PPDs. |
Even asssuming you could beat the Int in a tractor auction, you can't tractor an EM ship, which is what I was describing as being the exit strategy.
| Quote: |
Your strategy seems to depend on 2 DisDev attempts succeeding. If not, the ISC HETs and blasts the intruder with not only PPDs, but a vastly superior phaser suite. I think it would take some incredible maneuvering from the Andro to go from Range 3 out the rear half of the ISC without being tractored. Most likely, the Andro is retreating where a single turn by the PPDs will bring them into arc. |
It doesn't depend on either working. If the first fails, the attack doesn't happen, both ships are still out at raneg 16+. Wait a turn and try again. If the second fails he will still be EM as described, and likely to survive whatever PPDs are still around, possibly only 1. There will be no tractor as he will be EM before the chance arrives. Nor may he even be able to tractor depending on power.
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If the Intruder directs fire at range 0, it will definitely hurt the DN, but the DN fills the Intruder panels and causes some internals in return. Then it tractors the Intruder and what's left of 18 PH1/PH3 easily beats what's left of 8 PH2. You're just hastening the Intruder destruction. |
If the intruder fires at range 0 the DN gets hammered, On average the DN gets what 1 point through the panel, the DN doesn't tractor if the Int went EM.
I wouldn't exactly be after the range 0 pass, whilst it ups the damage on the DN a little, the slight risk to the Int isn't worth it, the DN still hurts plenty from a range 1-3 attack whilst being a lot safer on the Int. If range 0 happens then fair enough, the chance of the Int being badly damaged is not significant, it will still most likely be a very good exchange for the Int.
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My strategy if you read a prior post was to fire 2 PPDs at long range and keep 2 in reserve. Even 2 PPDs will provide a serious hurting if a panel dump is attempted. There's no hurry to fire them since they're held cheaply and range does't affect their damage by that much. |
If they are still around? 2 PPD at long range isn't a huge threat, and the 2 left over aren't either if they fire on the way out in the back. Whilst a power dump would be useful, it isn't needed if the Int pulls away to long range under EM whilst rearming.
| Quote: | | Why don't you play it out and see? |
I'd love to, but I don't get enough games to play every match up I'd like. Ther are a variety of match ups I'd like to try, but my regular opponent also has stuff he would like to try, including other games as well. maybe if I ever go back on fcol you can lose to me  |
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Bolo_MK_XL
Captain
Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 834
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Any mothership with 2 displacement devices wont suffer the tractor problem --
Don't worry over displacing yourself the second time -- displace the DN -- solves several problems with one stone --- Even if it only goes 1 or 2 hexes -- tractor is broken -- fc is disrupted --
You sail off into the distance till your ready to play tag again ---
And again -- what galactic ship of any size has a chance in Tholian space of winning a tractor auction against an Andro mothership --- all it will do is empty batteries for the Andro to clear his panels with --- |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | | Even asssuming you could beat the Int in a tractor auction, you can't tractor an EM ship, which is what I was describing as being the exit strategy. |
I don't believe that's true. I'm pretty sure you can tractor an EM ship, but the EM ship isn't allowed to tractor anything.
The DN should have plenty of energy. There's no reason to leave the corner in turn 1, so it should have held PPDs and full batteries. Then in turn 2, it can slowly leave the corner. Even if the Intruder breaks the tractor, it burns out its batteries and Andromedans WILL feel a power crunch without batteries, even after transferring some energy from PA panels.
During the engagement turn, the DN has 64 power. It needs 8 for PPDs, and 14 saved for phasers. It doesn't need to move fast at all, so it can declare baseline speed 0 or 8. The Andromedan needs 7 power for PA panels, 9 for TRH, 8 for PH2, 2 to hold DisDevs, 6 for EM, and probably 24 for speed and maybe a few for judicious acc/dec. There's no guarantee that the Intruder will be able to break the tractor.
| storeylf wrote: |
It doesn't depend on either working. If the first fails, the attack doesn't happen, both ships are still out at raneg 16+. Wait a turn and try again. If the second fails he will still be EM as described, and likely to survive whatever PPDs are still around, possibly only 1. There will be no tractor as he will be EM before the chance arrives. Nor may he even be able to tractor depending on power. |
Please show me where a ship under EM can't be tractored.
| storeylf wrote: |
If the intruder fires at range 0 the DN gets hammered, On average the DN gets what 1 point through the panel, the DN doesn't tractor if the Int went EM.
I wouldn't exactly be after the range 0 pass, whilst it ups the damage on the DN a little, the slight risk to the Int isn't worth it, the DN still hurts plenty from a range 1-3 attack whilst being a lot safer on the Int. If range 0 happens then fair enough, the chance of the Int being badly damaged is not significant, it will still most likely be a very good exchange for the Int. |
If it's tractored, the Int will be hurting a lot worse than the DN. I can't see anywhere in the rules that a EM ship can't be tractored. I only see that the EM ship can't do any tractoring of its own. Also, don't forget that the Andro has taken probably 18 or so damage at long range from 2 PPDs earlier. That will add to the internal damage of the first pass.
| storeylf wrote: |
If they are still around? 2 PPD at long range isn't a huge threat, and the 2 left over aren't either if they fire on the way out in the back. Whilst a power dump would be useful, it isn't needed if the Int pulls away to long range under EM whilst rearming. |
Unless you get to tractor range, you're not going to be killing more than 2 PPDs. You'll be lucky to even kill 2.
Last edited by mojo jojo on Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Bolo_MK_XL wrote: | Any mothership with 2 displacement devices wont suffer the tractor problem --
Don't worry over displacing yourself the second time -- displace the DN -- solves several problems with one stone --- Even if it only goes 1 or 2 hexes -- tractor is broken -- fc is disrupted --
You sail off into the distance till your ready to play tag again ---
And again -- what galactic ship of any size has a chance in Tholian space of winning a tractor auction against an Andro mothership --- all it will do is empty batteries for the Andro to clear his panels with --- |
If it's range 1, that may be true. Range 0 means no chance of displacing the target ship. And you probably DisDev'd yourself already to avoid PPDs earlier. That's 2 chances to roll a 6.
The Intruder vs DN tractor isn't as lopsided as you think. The DN has full power and batteries, is only spending 8 to hold PPDs, and is probably moving relatively slow. The Int has lots of things to spend energy on, and is probably moving 24+. |
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| mojo jojo wrote: |
Please show me where a ship under EM can't be tractored.
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2D4b - A ship which is maneuvering EM cannot; ....... or be tractored. |
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