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Federation Commander
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Kang
Fleet Captain
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1976
Location: Devon, UK
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 Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:45 am Post subject: Displacement device question |
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This might sound like a daft question, but can a Displacement Device be used on an impacted seeking weapon? I know the range is technically zero (so the attempt would usually be automatically unsuccessful), but defensive phasers fire as if they're at range 1 (firing all the way in), so there's a reason to allow it despite the range.
As for weapon-type prohibitions (like you can't fire a photon or a disruptor at an impacted SW), phasers are not the only weapon that can fire at impacted weapons; ISC plasmas can too, so that's why I was wondering if Displacement Devices would be eligible as well.
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terryoc
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Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1384
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| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:34 am Post subject: |
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I'd say not, since ISC plasmas get a special exception in their own rules. If you do displace a ship which has impacted seeking weapons, the weapons lose tracking and die.
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 4091
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement device question |
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| Kang wrote: | | This might sound like a daft question, but can a Displacement Device be used on an impacted seeking weapon? |
With a couple of very special exceptions (ESG, IPG), the only time weapons can fire on impacted seeking weapons is during Defensive Fire. The displacement device is not allowed to fire during Defensive Fire. Ergo, I have to say that displacement devices cannot be used against seeking weapons.
However, as Terry points out, you can always self-displace, which will remove all impacted seeking weapons. (But that isn't until the Offensive Fire phase, by which point the only remaining seeking weapons will have to be held by tractor beams.)
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:53 am Post subject: Re: Displacement device question |
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| mjwest wrote: | With a couple of very special exceptions (ESG, IPG), the only time weapons can fire on impacted seeking weapons is during Defensive Fire. The displacement device is not allowed to fire during Defensive Fire. Ergo, I have to say that displacement devices cannot be used against seeking weapons.
However, as Terry points out, you can always self-displace, which will remove all impacted seeking weapons. (But that isn't until the Offensive Fire phase, by which point the only remaining seeking weapons will have to be held by tractor beams.) |
I assume an impacted seeking weapon that is tractored is no longer classified as impacted and thus could be displaced, fired at with phasers, or anything else in a later direct fire phase? And the range would still be 1 for these actions? |
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terryoc
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Posts: 1384
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:15 am Post subject: |
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An impacted weapon held in a tractor can be fired at with phasers by the impacted ship. IDK about anything else.
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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Bolo_MK_XL
Captain
Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 834
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Not like the Andros have a lot of Tractors laying around waiting for something to use them on -- |
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 4091
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:41 am Post subject: Re: Displacement device question |
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| DirkSJ wrote: | | I assume an impacted seeking weapon that is tractored is no longer classified as impacted and thus could be displaced, fired at with phasers, or anything else in a later direct fire phase? And the range would still be 1 for these actions? |
That would be, no. Basically, once a seeking weapon is impacted, it stays impacted, even when tractored.
Rule (5D4) pretty clearly explains what the options are for an impacted drone that is tractored. So, an impacted drone that is tractored may only be fired on during the Defensive Fire phase, and only by the ship that the drone impacted. There are of course, exceptions to this (ADDs cannot be used on tractored drones; ESGs and IPGs have additional rules.)
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement device question |
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| mjwest wrote: | | DirkSJ wrote: | | I assume an impacted seeking weapon that is tractored is no longer classified as impacted and thus could be displaced, fired at with phasers, or anything else in a later direct fire phase? And the range would still be 1 for these actions? |
That would be, no. Basically, once a seeking weapon is impacted, it stays impacted, even when tractored.
Rule (5D4) pretty clearly explains what the options are for an impacted drone that is tractored. So, an impacted drone that is tractored may only be fired on during the Defensive Fire phase, and only by the ship that the drone impacted. There are of course, exceptions to this (ADDs cannot be used on tractored drones; ESGs and IPGs have additional rules.) |
Hrm my copy of the rules 5D4 just lists what happens if the drone is destroyed (5D4a, no mention of what can fire on it, just that only you can fire) or a tractor holding a drone is destroyed (5D4b) or end of turn you don't pay (5D4c).
Paradoxically the drone is at range 1 and simultaneously is "too close" for other ships to fire at it. This makes zero sense in any turn other than the "initial impact" turn as you presumably fire as it comes in (range 1) and then tractor when you miss and it's now too close. Later fire seems like it should be range 0 if the drone is really "too close".
I don't see anything in 5D4 about what weapons are allowed to fire on tractored drones on later Impulses. I don't see any rule that says impacted held in tractor can only be fired at in later defensive fire steps and never in direct fire nor any limit to what can be fired.
This may be things with *'s not in my rulebook. Mine is Fifth Edition May 2509 from Romulan Border. |
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 4091
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement device question |
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| DirkSJ wrote: | | I don't see anything in 5D4 about what weapons are allowed to fire on tractored drones on later Impulses. I don't see any rule that says impacted held in tractor can only be fired at in later defensive fire steps and never in direct fire nor any limit to what can be fired. |
The key thing is that the rule shows that tractored impacted drones are still impacted. That's all that's really necessary, as other rules explain that impacted drones may only be fired at in the defensive fire phase (whether in the first impulse of impact, or after being tractored. The defensive fire rules then explain what weapons can be fired in defensive fire.
As for the range 1 issue, all defensive fire uses the range 1 bracket. That is a massive simplification, but the whole impact/defensive fire thing is a generalization and glosses over certain "physical realities" in order to smooth out game play.
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement device question |
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| mjwest wrote: | The key thing is that the rule shows that tractored impacted drones are still impacted. That's all that's really necessary, as other rules explain that impacted drones may only be fired at in the defensive fire phase (whether in the first impulse of impact, or after being tractored. The defensive fire rules then explain what weapons can be fired in defensive fire.
As for the range 1 issue, all defensive fire uses the range 1 bracket. That is a massive simplification, but the whole impact/defensive fire thing is a generalization and glosses over certain "physical realities" in order to smooth out game play. |
Guess that works for me heh.
As an alternate complex method each SSD could have had a little 7hex circle thing with A->F designations. When a drone comes in on your number 4 you'd look and see that is direction, let's say, B from your ship and stack the drones on B rather than your rear shield. Then you could really consider them in that hex, B from you, no matter your ship's facing or position. If the tractor holding it is lost the drone would go back on the map in that hex.
It would then allow for tractored drones to behave like all other tractored things (tractored things don't normally "turn with you" or sweep around as you turn). After a 60 degree turn you just changed what shield the drones are coming in on and what weapons bear. They could also then be completely handled in offensive fire from then on and anyone could shoot them as they are literally one hex in the B direction from your ship. |
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