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pixelgeek
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada

PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any thought given to producing electronic versions?
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Jean
Site Admin


Joined: 18 Sep 2008
Posts: 1284

PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know we have thought about it. I think, however, that we are taking baby steps into the e-water and doing Captain's Log would be a fairly large commitment. Let's do baby steps first.

It isn't helping the e-case that a huge amount of Joel's time is going to shutting the torrent torrent down to a trickle. So far, the scans have been poor quality; all it takes is one thief of our e-products and things get pretty yucky for the company.
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pixelgeek
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada

PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jean wrote:
It isn't helping the e-case that a huge amount of Joel's time is going to shutting the torrent torrent down to a trickle.


I'd suggesting looking into distribution via Wargame Vault/DriveThru RPG. They watermark all of their downloads which makes it less likely that people will add them to torrent sites.

I also think that its probably not a good use of your time worrying about them in any case.

Anyone who pirates your books is not going to pay for them anyway.
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Jeffr0
Commander


Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Posts: 741

PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like e23 just fine.

I dislike shopping with DriveThruRPG precisely because they treat me like I am some kind of criminal.

Besides, there are other game designers named Steve that I like to support. Wink
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Jean
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Joined: 18 Sep 2008
Posts: 1284

PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a good amount of debate on that. I know that we need to vigorously defend our copyright (and our license). Think of it this way -- a store owner knows there will be some amount of shoplifting, but he cannot make it easy on the thieves or just ignore it. People who do post our files to torrent sites are stealing, plain and simple.

Having had my personal possessions stolen before, it irks me to let a thief get away with his ill-gotten booty.
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pixelgeek
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jean wrote:
There is a good amount of debate on that. I know that we need to vigorously defend our copyright (and our license). Think of it this way -- a store owner knows there will be some amount of shoplifting, but he cannot make it easy on the thieves or just ignore it. People who do post our files to torrent sites are stealing, plain and simple.


That may be the case but the net effect on your bottom line isn't the same.

If person X downloads a PDF from a torrent site there isn't any net lose on your part. People who download game products from torrent sites aren't typically customers.

I really doubt that you lose actual customers. Especially in your market. Its not as if you have the same 12-14 year olds downloading 40K rulebooks.

Now it might be galling to see your products on bittorrent sites but I don't think that you should let that stop you from trying to provide a different type of delivery to customers.

I also don't think that it has anything to do with defending your copyright either. It would be the same as saying that stolen copies of your work on sale were an impact on your copyright and that isn't the case.

In either case. Having clearly watermarked products cuts down on this and also allows you to directly target people who upload the files to sites.

Jeffr0 wrote:
I dislike shopping with DriveThruRPG precisely because they treat me like I am some kind of criminal.


Not sure what that means.
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Jeffr0
Commander


Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Posts: 741

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The watermarking and the download limit is really lame. Steve Jackson treats his clients first-class. No watermark and unlimited downloads.

I get treated like ^&$#^(* by idiot gamer-geek game store staff as it is. I put a lot value on the quality service SJG provides... and portion my gaming $$ out accordingly.
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marcus_aurelius
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 07 Jun 2008
Posts: 254
Location: Cary IL

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the hardcopies. It gives the experience of reading them more of an 80's feel, which fits well since the early issues were printed in the 80's. Reading them on the computer somehow doesn't feel right to me.

I really liked reading the Day of the Eagle fiction. It gave me more of an appreciation of those scenarios (from FC Romulan Border I believe).
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mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3479
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pixelgeek wrote:
I also don't think that it has anything to do with defending your copyright either. It would be the same as saying that stolen copies of your work on sale were an impact on your copyright and that isn't the case.

Look, ADB doesn't do all of this copyright defense and pirate site shutdown stuff because it is fun or because they want to. They do it because it is necessary in order to preserve their copyright, their IP, and their license. They are very open about this and know this stuff way better than you or I can.

So, everyone, please stop trying to tell ADB why they don't have to do this. They do have to, and they have explained why multiple times. Arguing the point is just needlessly annoys them. They have the lawyers that tell them this is necessary, and they know what their license says. Please take them at their word.
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pixelgeek
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Look, ADB doesn't do all of this copyright defense and pirate site shutdown stuff because it is fun or because they want to.


Turn the volume down a bit okay? Very Happy

I always like to ask for electronic versions of products. I largely work from electronic versions of books now. I also think that basing your business decisions on what pirates do isn't always in the best interest of your clients.

I have the Klingon and Romulan Armada PDFs from e23 but I can say without hesitation that there is no way I would buy print versions of the old or new Captain Logs. If they were available in PDF form I would.
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pixelgeek
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeffr0 wrote:
The watermarking and the download limit is really lame.


How so. I've only downloaded a file from Wargame Vault twice in one instance. I accidentally deleted the file and went to get another copy.

I also suspect that this is something that publishers want as I can't see why Wargame Vault would care.
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Jean
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Joined: 18 Sep 2008
Posts: 1284

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Folks, we made the decision to go with e23 because we believe it is the best choice for our customers. We know that Bad Things happen to computers (and far more often than to paper copies, it seems) and if you have put down good money to get your downloads, you should have them.

We trust our customers to do the right thing. Unfortunately, there's always someone who thinks it won't hurt to "share" his copy. It isn't "sharing"; it is snatching a copy out of our hands and giving it to someone else and then feeling really proud of what's been done. If I snatched Sally's Booster Pack and gave it to Jane, you'd call that stealing.

Mike is right. We have to make the attempt to defend our intellectual property from thieves.

I've heard otherwise law-abiding people say:

I bought the paper version long ago, but lost it. It won't hurt to download it this once. (Yeah, but one and one and one and one add up.)

I want it on my computer, but don't have time to scan it. (Do it yourself or get a legal copy.)

I just want to read it and see if I like it. I'll buy it if I like it. (Problem is, that they will buy it "next week" which never seems to get here.)

It's not like I'm hurting a real person. (This one burns me up -- what am I? What are my PD writers? What are the Steves and Leanna and Mike Sparks and Joel?)

Everybody does it. (Doesn't make it right and I'm somebody and I don't do it so it isn't everybody.)

At work, I keep a candy bowl by my door. Some of my co-workers have mentioned that when I add "their favorite candy" to the mix, they gain weight because the temptation to yield to impulse is too easy. If they have to walk across campus to the bookstore, they are less likely to indulge. I like to think of us taking down illegal links as moving the bookstore to the far side of campus. Smile It won't stop a determined person, but it helps keep most people honest.

(Jean gets off her soapbox, picks it up, and heads to bed.)
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pixelgeek
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jean wrote:
I want it on my computer, but don't have time to scan it. (Do it yourself or get a legal copy.)


Is that actually legal in the US?
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Jean
Site Admin


Joined: 18 Sep 2008
Posts: 1284

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as you keep your copy on your computer and do not sell it or give it away or loan it to any other person, we won't be coming after you.

Now, if you do something illegal and that copy is found during a legal search of your computer and the authorities decide to "pile on" a copyright charge, then that is your problem.

[Edit. To clarify, it is like going 60 mph in a 55 mph speed zone. It isn't legal, but most days you can slide. It's that day you do it in a speed trap or when the police are cracking down in a particular area that you'll get into trouble.]
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Steve Cole
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Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 3052

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please don't waste any more of my bandwidth explaining why i don't have to worry about criminals and thieves.
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