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Rom v Hydran Challenge
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1950
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savedfromwhat wrote:
There will still be 6 Stingers with range 0 shots from P3s and fusions beams.


Given the 'turn and retreat' tactic above, please describe how you would make this happen. Very Happy

Savedfromwhat wrote:
This is an unwinnable position for the Romulans....


Yes but it was set up as an hypothetical situation, wasn't it?
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In light of the rules clarification on recloaking at the point you fade back in, and therefore never being fully visible, I change my answer and agree with Terry - hit the recloak and avoid ever giving any shots at range 3 or less. The romulans can escape fairly intact doing that. Except of course i wouldn't disengage Very Happy
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dharras
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Joined: 31 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
In light of the rules clarification on recloaking at the point you fade back in, and therefore never being fully visible, I change my answer and agree with Terry - hit the recloak and avoid ever giving any shots at range 3 or less. The romulans can escape fairly intact doing that. Except of course i wouldn't disengage Very Happy


Unless the Romulans HET immediately, there will be nothing stopping the stingers being at R0. If they do HET, there's a 50% chance they'll void their cloak (not much of an issue, because they'll start fade out at the end of the impulse anyhow).

The Snipe captains had better hope that they have full batteries and weren't loading torps this turn, otherwise their survival will likely be down to not voiding the cloak with a HET.

Assuming full batteries, 12 points of power. 4 goes to Movement, as the cloaking device is active (and we're recloaking), assuming we faded out last turn, thats 1 point on cloaking, lets hope we're holding the Pl-G rather than in final turn of arming so 1pt there, so we have 6 pts left.

The HET will cost 1.25. Cloaking us out again will cost us 1pt. We can't assume the HET will work without voiding the cloak (at which point, everything possible will be fired at us because there won't be a better opportunity this turn), so the HET needs to be done immediately. If it fails, we'd rather be further away from the stingers, so we need to buy acceleration in advance (1/4); if we don't void the cloak, we need to buy deceleration (otherwise it will be voided anyhow) (1/4) - so 2.75 on future energy requirements...
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dharras wrote:

Unless the Romulans HET immediately, there will be nothing stopping the stingers being at R0. If they do HET, there's a 50% chance they'll void their cloak (not much of an issue, because they'll start fade out at the end of the impulse anyhow).

....



You are missing the point. Given that you are instantly recloaking (and therefore remaining in fade) there will be a +4 range adjustment. Even if the real range is in fact 0 the hydrans will be firing at range 4. Hence recloaking avoids giving a range 3 or less shot. Range 4 is the knacker as it sees all those PhGs drop effectivesness by a huge margin, they are only 1/3 as effective at range 4 as they wouuld have been at range 3 and 1/6 as effective as range 2.

If you are recloaking instantly, HETing is pointless and very risky. Its risky cos it provides a chance the Hydrans will fire at an uncloaked ship during direct fire before you can recloak (if the HET roll voids the cloak).

Its also pointless because there is no difference for the hydrans between a range 0 shot adjusted to range 4 and a range 2 shot adjusted to range 6, or a range 4 shot adjusted to range 8. There are only 4 weapons in the entire hydran fleet that woud benefit from the range 0 shot - the 4 ph1s on the MHKs.

It is further beneficial to the romulans for the hydrans to be around range 0 or 1 rather than further back at range 2-4. At the closer range it becomes impossible to concentrate firepower through one shield, If the hydrans mass around the romulans as they under shoot then the much reduced hydran range 4+ firepower will be spread across numerous shields, further providing protection for the romulans.

A further benefit of simply plowing ahead is that the hydran carriers will be burning power to decel and/or to HET back round, whereas HETing saves the Carriers from expending any movement energy, they just have to simply carry on forward.

And of course why use your free HET when you derive no clear benefit.

In short, HETing as well is recloakinig is daft. [edit]But see next post


Last edited by storeylf on Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The beauty of the instant recloak and under run is that it practically encourages the hydran to kill himself. Against a hydran player who hasn't fully thought through the next several impulses you are looking at a sequence of events that go something along the lines of:

Impulse 5 = move 2. Declare recloak, now fading out.

Impulse 6 = move 2. Hydran fighters will have HETd to follow, The carriers may well have done so as well (depending on how much foresight the hydran player had).
Impulse 6, direct fire phase = Hydrans fire everything they can before the cloak takes full effect. It will probably not be massively effective, but they aren't going to get a better chance.
Impulse 6, other functions phase = declare uncloak!

Impulse 7 = Enjoy the panic in the hydrans eyes as he realises his monumental error. Having used his HETs and weapons, he is wide open for a point blank counter attack. You still have your HET. Manouver as necessary to bring your self round, you want range 2 to stingers (for guaranteed plasma kills) or possibly even get on top of the motherships for some plasma fun with them.

Impulse 7, other functions phase = Fully uncloaked.
Impulse 7, launch phase = you can now launch 12 plasmas.

Impulse 8, move phase= if you have no energy for phasers then start your escape run, otherwise consider hanging around to rub salt in the wound.
Impulse 8, defensive fire - declare delayed EM so that at start of next turn you have a +2 against anything still around to shhot you.
Impulse 8, offensive fire = If you have any energy left, you now have close range ph1 fire. Kill stingers or directed fire at carriers.

Next turn you will pay for the EM and probably declare speed 24 to get out of the way, accelerate on impulse 1 as well to put an extra hex between you and remaining hydrans. Hydran carriers may be risking a second HET to bring themselves round to you again, and stingers will either be dead or put beyond useful range in the face of a +2 shift.


Do you have the energy for it?

KE: Assuming he paid for all his cloak this turn (and some wasn't prepaid last turn) he will have spent 16 on move, cloak = 10.5, plasma R = 1 (held as G) or 3 (arm as G), HET = 5, phasers = 4. So The KEs are fine, they probably have a few points spare.

SN: move = 4, cloak = 1.75, plasma 1 or 3, HET = 1.25, phasers = 2. He can just afford even if the G was armed this turn.

Is it worth it? absolutely, Even if the romulans only kill 12 stingers from plasma it is effectlively game over for the hydrans if there are still 3 or 4 romulans left.

What can a hydran do against that, well his obvious option is to ensure he holds back enough firepower (that can't be wiped out by plasma before it gets to fire) to deter a counter attack. That solves the puzzle though, the romulans get away largely unscratched.

PS in an earlier post I alluded to something a hydran could do that would severly limit his ability to take out the romulans, that was to HET to early. Even ignoring the recloak option, A naive hydran may end impulse 5 sat on top of the romulan with some of his stingers, but facing the wrong way. If on the following impulse he HETs to follow the romulan on subpulse 2, in an attempt to remain at range 0, then the romulan just counter HETs and ends up behind him out of arc. Even worse some of those RP/LP plasma will be able to track some of the other stingers, so the hydran loses half a dozen stingers and the rest can't effectively fire.

One important early romulan strategy against stingers is to try and get them to HET early in a turn and then manouver your 4 ships in such a way that at least some of them can uncloak without fear of more stingers than they can handle. There are not enough carriers to cover everywhere at once, a patient romulan will eventually get the chances to take out a stinger here and a stinger there. The hydran needs a critical mass of stingers to deter romulan uncloaking and every lost stinger makes it a lot harder to deal with the romulans. The tactical flexibilty of instant recloak really makes it so much easier to achieve this.
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duxvolantis
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Joined: 16 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
The beauty of the instant recloak and under run is that it practically encourages the hydran to kill himself. Against a hydran player who hasn't fully thought through the next several impulses ....


Good plan. However you have a plan that relies on the Hydran player being stupid. Against a cloak, a Hydran has to be patient. Move to range 0 and park on top of the Romulan.

Game Over.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roms have to be patient, hydrans have to be patient. One of them has to be stupid at some point. Of course anyone who ever lost a game of FC was stupid in hindsight. Wink

At any rate the 'puzzle' is effectively solved. The romulan escapes unhurt because the hydran won't be stupid enough to actually shoot the romulan ships before they are fully cloaked again. Shocked

[edit] and just to clarify the plan doesn't rely on the hydran being stupid, the plan either gets the rom out of a bad position with minimal damage OR cripples the hydran. There is little the hydran can do about it, he is in a position of allowing the romulan to achieve one of his goals. In the context of the thread the rom is in a win-win scenario as far as I can see at the moment.


Last edited by storeylf on Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:12 am; edited 3 times in total
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does however amuse me these comments about good players don't do X, or he made a stupid mistake.

It is easy to see in hindight or after something is explained that what happened was a 'mistake' or 'stupid'. But hindsight is something that you do not have during a game. Chess is a far easier game than FC yet even the best players in the world lose games. In hindsight they probably saw where they went wrong as well, doesn't mean they are not good players. Back in my early teens I was heavily into chess, and was amongst the top few % in the county within that age group, I got to play against a grandmaster (nigel short) once when he was playing ~20 other players at the same time, I was crushed. Boy I must be a stupid chess player, good job my interests move to other things!

It reminds me of one of my lectures whilst studying law. I don't know whether it is an 'urban' myth or an actual case (I never went and checked), but we were discussing obviousness in patent law. Supposedly several top judges were disputing whether some patent failed the test of obviousness, the lawyer produced an egg and asked the judges to stand the egg on its end. They pondered for a minute and said that wasn't possible. The lawyer took the egg, tapped it hard on the end (crushing the end flat) and stood it up. A judge said well 'well obviously you could do that' to which the lawyer replied 'yet it wasn't obvious just a moment ago'.

I'll bet there are a fair number of FC players who would do exactly what I suggested in the above post, and see the chance to shoot before the rom is fully cloaked and take it. They may not do it a second time, but they'll then be wondering what they should do instead. They aren't all stupid players, if any move that lost you the game makes a stupid player then we are all stupid players.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee, what do you think about tweaking your tactic by timing the uncloak/recloak to near the end of the turn, and then you will be able to repeat it at the beginning of the next turn, should you so wish?
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